Meanwhile in Ukraine

[AntiBlitz]

presidency is just a show. Like in USA there was 2 candidates, one for peace and one for war. They chosen the one for peace, and what changed? nothing even more wars and involvement in business of other countries then before.

not sure what election you watched, nor where you have been for the past 15 years, but you're full of shit.

[Xant]

I'm afraid to ask about your logic

The amount of conflict someone or something is involved in doesn't automatically make them bad or worse than someone involved in less conflict but a lot more morally questionable conflict (f.ex Russia with Ukraine). Most people are also very happy about the fact that US plays world police -- they fuck up, yes, but over all it does more good than evil to have someone like them willing and able to interfere in Bad Things. The American public would never allow anything like the Ukraine conflict (that is to say, replacing the US with Russia, and US attacking Ukraine). Do you think Canada fears an invasion from the US? Which neighboring country of Russia doesn't treat them like one would treat an unpredictable madman?

[Tibe]

not sure what election you watched, nor where you have been for the past 15 years, but you're full of shit.

Ye, that was a very odd statement. I thought the last US presidency election was between a white rich asshole and the balanced black guy. Dont recall any war and peace thing evolved. His just your typical eastern-european: "Stop generalizing my country based on stereotypes built by the Western media! But I still want to generalize your country and the rest of the West based on stereotypes built by Eastern media."

....eehh. I quess both have some degree of saying in this.

[Nebun]

The amount of conflict someone or something is involved in doesn't automatically make them bad or worse than someone involved in less conflict but a lot more morally questionable conflict (f.ex Russia with Ukraine). Most people are also very happy about the fact that US plays world police -- they fuck up, yes, but over all it does more good than evil to have someone like them willing and able to interfere in Bad Things. The American public would never allow anything like the Ukraine conflict (that is to say, replacing the US with Russia, and US attacking Ukraine). Do you think Canada fears an invasion from the US? Which neighboring country of Russia doesn't treat them like one would treat an unpredictable madman?

Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.
I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan? Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?
Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?

Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?

And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.
Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?

Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.

EAT THAT

[Kuujis]

<...bukkake...>
About countries that joined EU, they got their things to a good level before joining EU not after And almost all countries that joined EU suffered economically in one way or another.
Italy, Spain, Greece, Litva, Latvia, Romania - i can't say about other countries because not sure. But anyway before joining EU those countries was fine so don't make it like its EUs doing.
<...bukkake...>

How about fucking no? EU, along with its rules and requirements brought MUCH good practice on combating the same bane mentioned over and over again.

no i don't see how any of this proves ur point, since there is a huge difference between being communist country and democratic country who doesn't join any alliance, so u basically compared communist country to a country inside EU, which is not correct. Since we are all now democratic countries. The only difference is with who allied or neutral.

Those neighbors of russia who did not manage to join the alliane are now fucked or in the line to be fucked, because  sooner or later their and russias interests will go along different roads. At which point russia will go "qq, usa bad, leading my provinces away, save russians" (TOTALLY  not what naztees did and completely unrelated to nationalism ofc) and BAM - Belarus is Ukraine V2.0. Then Kazachstan, which according to russias officials is not a country at all, unless friendly dictator is in power.

Count neutral states in Europe with a border with russia. How many of them were fucked by russia since fall of cccp? My and my countries experience is that in the west you fuck each other, sometimes its bondage, but mostly its just sex. With russia - its always rape. I see no point in looking at it as an imaginary alternative.

[Tibe]

Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.
I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan? Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?
Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?

Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?

And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.
Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?

Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.

EAT THAT

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[Nebun]

Ye, that was a very odd statement. I thought the last US presidency election was between a white rich asshole and the balanced black guy. Dont recall any war and peace thing evolved. His just your typical eastern-european: "Stop generalizing my country based on stereotypes built by the Western media! But I still want to generalize your country and the rest of the West based on stereotypes built by Eastern media."

....eehh. I quess both have some degree of saying in this.

i don't watch media, except for fun parts on youtube everyone lies and exaggerates
I guess u didn't understand me about presidency. When bush was in charge - wars begun. Then lets keep it simple: 2 candidates run for presidency, white - for war, and black for peace. Then black guy wins, recieves award for peace and continues his wars and so eager to start a new one with syria that his balls hurt from tension. He also wanted to fuck with Iran, but they had to powerful friends.
THE POINT: It doesn't matter who u choose - political course doesn't change! Or you forgot that Obama was against wars(maybe partly people chose him for this? it seams kind of important)? Maybe there was final words at the end of his speech that nobody hear'd "... after we take control of all countries with natural resources"

[Nebun]

How about fucking no? EU, along with its rules and requirements brought MUCH good practice on combating the same bane mentioned over and over again.
Those neighbors of russia who did not manage to join the alliane are now fucked or in the line to be fucked, because  sooner or later their and russias interests will go along different roads. At which point russia will go "qq, usa bad, leading my provinces away, save russians" (TOTALLY  not what naztees did and completely unrelated to nationalism ofc) and BAM - Belarus is Ukraine V2.0. Then Kazachstan, which according to russias officials is not a country at all, unless friendly dictator is in power.

Count neutral states in Europe with a border with russia. How many of them were fucked by russia since fall of cccp? My and my countries experience is that in the west you fuck each other, sometimes its bondage, but mostly its just sex. With russia - its always rape. I see no point in looking at it as an imaginary alternative.

going back to CCCP again, we was last to leave thats why fucked )) didn't have enough time to build up
since when Kazahstan or belarus is ur fucking problem?
Belarus moldova and ukraine was on similar level. Just they had resources and we didn't.
As i said already no country joining EU become amazing like all others. They simply develop in their own natural way. Would it be the same without EU or not hard to tell.
You need to dive into numbers.
We had all our export and market in russia, they took anything we was willing to sell. It was making our budget.
And they also wanted us in free trade zone. Ofcourse its their interest to keep influence over us but it also our interest for economy. Now we have western influence and no economy.
We also had dirt cheap resources 4-5 cheaper then EU pays.
In europe nobody wants our trinkets ((
We have only internal trade and products from europe.

Similar situations for Ukraine and Belarus. Cmon make some constructive suggestion on how we could benefit from EU?
And please without those - "You have to try harder", "You have to make better things"
it takes money that we don't have, and time and practice to make better things - and i'm sure we have amazing Wine best i've had, English Queen drinks Negru De Purcari - our wine. But nobody will let us sell it in EU because it conflicts with ineterests of out countries producing wine

PS: EAT THAT

[Tibe]

... "... after we take control of all countries with natural resources"

Eeehh...Nebun. You do realise USA has sofar only invaded 2 countries in the modern era, right? And the war on Iraq was kinda even supported by arabs themselves btw. All those other overthrowingstories are just stories, we dont know actual facts, so they dont count. You make it sound like they invaded 100 countries.

And the presidents didnt start the wars. That not how this works. USA is not Russia. The president cant do shit. And the people didnt choose Obama because peace, they chose him because Romney was basically a rich fucktard who wanted to fuck the poor even harder for the sake of increasing the economy. Pretty sure they didnt even want Obama, but Romney was just worse. This "war and peace presidency" shit is completely retarded and mainly only in your head.

[Nebun]

Eeehh...Nebun. You do realise USA has sofar only invaded 2 countries in the modern era, right? And the war on Iraq was kinda even supported by arabs themselves btw. All those other overthrowingstories are just stories, we dont know actual facts, so they dont count. You make it sound like they invaded 100 countries.

And the presidents didnt start the wars. That not how this works. USA is not Russia. The president cant do shit. And the people didnt choose Obama because peace, they chose him because Romney was basically a rich fucktard who wanted to fuck the poor even harder for the sake of increasing the economy. Pretty sure they didnt even want Obama, but Romney was just worse. This "war and peace presidency" shit is completely retarded and mainly only in your head.

reallyyyyy ) then i live on a different planet, Obama ordered support and bombings in Libya without congress approval or support. And he wanted to do same in Syria. I guess changed hist mind. Afganistan and Iraq? Well compare it to russian quests ))
Ah yes, sure everything russia does its bad, while everything that west does can be explained.
Well then explain me why US got involved in my country and changed government?
Its not a thought or opinion, its a fact of which many ppl know. And know who did it and how did it, and story of the life of the guy who was sent to do it.
Its simply fight for territory and influence.

Do u know how I can guess if our government still ours or not. If it wants to make business with everyone and upsets russia and eu with some of their actions ) i can be sure its ours. If it agrees to everything west says and does, then its URS )

PS: I WILL TIRE U WITH MY WALLS OF TEXT UNTIL U GIVE UP

[Macropus]

It's time for the Kitty History lesson, lads.
#relevant

[Thomek]

First of all, thanks for contributing Nebun. And Kujiis don't chase everyone away with your kneejerk reactions. He actually brings a more moderate perspective to this debate.. Also macro, feel free to chip in, im just curious.

I'm not gonna go out excusing the US. They have made plenty of retarded decisions repeatedly. Like ousting middle east dictators.. By know they should have learned those dictators are the only thing holding it together, like it or not. But damage done..

Point is that it doesn't excuse RF actions. Besides, because I'm a racist, it's 10 times worse when it happens in Europe. You can't make the fanatics in the middle east suddenly stop being fanatics.. What happens in Ukraine is especially pointless.

I'm willing to give a lot of credit to Putin. Economical growth: check, relative stability: check, law and order: check?
I'm willing to admit that perhaps RF is not ready for democracy. That the country simply needs a strong leader/dictator for a while longer. If just to keep the behemoth of a country together.

I'm sure even the west likes to have him there, considering an alternative leader would be risking RF internal chaos, and nobody wants that.

Just don't excuse his politics regarding Ukraine. I honestly don't see what the problem is with an EU/Nato aligned Ukraine? Like Bush went on to attack Iraq and Afghanistan for internal reasons (revenge), I think Putin did the same. He did it so Ukraine can never humiliate RF by having a decent economy and life. So RF wouldn't look so alone in the world.

[Xant]

Does Canada need to be afraid? those who obey don't have to be punished.

Canada doesn't need to be afraid. I don't know how your obedience comment is related.

I guess you think that roses grow in all of the places US visit? Iraq, Libya, Egypt(causing problems), Afganistan?

Did roses grow there before US visited? Nope. Shit holes way before the US ever laid its eyes on those countries.

Support of Syrian rebels, those that they was fighting recently in afganistan?

Yes, life isn't a Disney tale and the US isn't ruled by a dictator like Russia.

Can you tell me who are those people and from which countries are happy for US to be universal police? Maybe only those that they don't attack?

Most of the world that hasn't been brainwashed by moronic Russian propaganda.

Hm and lets compare two situations here. One: where lets say russian government and population supports rebels in Ukraine because mainly Radical Nationalists killing russian speaking population. So they sort of helping their own.
Another: US/Eu was helping by supplying Syrian rebels with mercs and weapons? Any EU or NA citizens was in danger?
I understand the feelings of ppl who annoyed when their own being killed in a neighboring country. Because i've been through this in my country.
Wtf do u know about this situation Xant? What would u do if in country next to you they would be killing people of ur nationality, maybe some of ur relatives?

Even trying to draw a correlation between the situation in Syria and Russia invading Ukraine is retarded.

What would I do? Nothing, because I'm not a retarded brainwashed "patriot." Anyone of "Russian nationality" in Ukraine could have just moved back to Russia then. No one forces them to remain in Ukraine, especially if they self-identify as fucking Russians...

And again what was there about America to never attack country like ukraine? And why u say attack? when Obama supports separatists who BLOW UP FUCKING BUILDINGS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY, shops etc. where civilians die - they don't call it attack, they just supplying FREEEDOM fighters with weapons. And in case of Russian - Ukraine u say attack? Have i missed something or Russia decleared war on Ukraine rolled into Kiev? And by the way, i don't remember anything about rebels in ukraine who blow up public places in Kiev to kill civilians.

Seriously, are 99.99% of Russians truly retarded? No wonder Putin can rule them so effectively. Even when he pisses on his people, he just needs to tell them it's raining and they believe him. Even if it was proven that he pissed on them before, this time, surely, it's rain. Because Putler said so.

Double standards. U create EVIL creature in the minds of people and then u go fight it and people will follow because they believe this stupid shit. By the way which part of the country in ruins in Ukraine? Where people left without pensions? make a guess east or west?

Uh... east? Because Russia invaded from the east?

Maybe next time when one side wins election in US lets say Democrats, they will kill all Republicans and everyone else who oppose them. That would be for me something similar to situation in Ukraine, only difference is conflict of nations and not ruling parties.

Maybe next time build your straw man a bit better, there's hay bursting out from all the seams.

EAT THAT

Eat more very classic Russianism? Sure.

[Macropus]

Also macro, feel free to chip in, im just curious.

I better not, don't wanna expose my complete ignorance on this matter. All I know is that something is really fucked up there, but as for the details - how do I know? Should I trust Ukrainian news? Fuck them. Should I trust Russian news? Fuck them too.
I do watch this channel though - http://www.youtube.com/user/SuperSharij/videos, it's an Ukrainian reporter who doesn't live there anymore. I'm far from declaring what he says to be an absolute truth, but he makes some good points. Not sure if he has eng subs though.

[Nebun]

And again like you might have guessed i have completely different point of view
its a chess game between states and russia
and i don't understand your position Tomek, u don't go into detail, what exactly u don't like Putin doing in Ukraine?
supporting rebels with equipment and letting volunteers cross border?
Ok what is the alternative? let ukrain army kill everyone or kick ppl out of their homes or get them all to prison? can u come up with solution?

Was original rebelion of UKR very democratic? And election of new president maybe?
I for example don't support extreme nationalists in russia who would dream of taking over all ukraine.
but i also don't support aggressive actions from NEW so called REAL government against its citizens.
Eu provoked this too, NA also, country divided, people want different things. Ukr gov stopped paying pensions to civilians in east ukraine, they also not allowed to vote.
Democratic?
WTF EU need ukraine for, it will take 50 years to get it to the level when it will be accepted properly.
Lets make cold assumption, Russian wants to influence ukraine, and lets say kazahstan, countries who was part of empire, union, and on border. Then why US and EU trying to influence all world is normal and here is not:)) To be fair then lets split up each state in USA to be different country and send our rebels there and supply them with weapons ))) And explain to Russian population that we helping poor people fight for their freedom. ))

And again if they managed to make soft transition in Moldova this time, why didn't they do it in Ukraine, why they had to provoke russian speaking population to rebel? They either stupid people who can't think of a way to present things softly to population of their country or they wanted this war on purpose.