Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 632381 times)

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Offline Tibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8385 on: February 26, 2015, 06:15:24 pm »
+1
I liked how FIFA started its own investigation and found themselves not corrupt.

Offline Corwin

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8386 on: February 27, 2015, 11:24:54 pm »
0
I wanted to share this quite sober and realistic analysis of situation, for both Russians and Ukrainians to see. Mostly because the article(s) is quite objective about the facts, and because it explains at least partially US point of view.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2015/01/22/u-s-should-stay-out-of-the-russo-ukrainian-quarrel-a-bakers-dozen-reasons-why-the-conflict-in-ukraine-is-not-americas-business-part-one/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/doug-bandow/seven-reasons-why-us-shou_b_6763732.html

Here are some highlights:

1) Ukraine isn’t important geopolitically.

It might come as a shock to Kiev’s strongest supporters, but Ukraine is not the center of the universe.
Ukraine is largely irrelevant to American security. The United States was founded, developed, and became a superpower all the while Ukraine was ruled from Moscow. Kiev’s future matters more to Europe, but even that connection is limited.

2) Russia matters more than Ukraine to America.

In January Russia signed an agreement with Iran for expanded defense cooperation, reportedly including long-delayed delivery of the S300 missile air defense system. This weapon could greatly complicate plans for an American or Israeli military strike on Iran.


This might be just the start. The Putin government could arm Syria with advanced missiles, defend Tehran against American and European pressure over its nuclear program, impede U.S. logistical operations in Afghanistan, provide advanced arms to North Korea, and transfer military technologies to China. Worse, Russia is pursuing a closer relationship with China; should that evolve into a serious anti-American axis, despite serious differences between the two states, much harm could result.

4)      Washington never guaranteed Ukraine’s security.

In short, Washington offered Ukraine no meaningful commitment to do anything practical to help Kiev in any circumstance. If the Clinton administration had intended to defend Ukraine, the former would have presented a treaty for Senate approval or forced through Kiev’s accession to NATO. But Washington was no more ready to go to war for Ukraine in 1994 than in 2014. Allied politicians offered high-sounding rhetoric rather than practical commitments. The Ukrainian government accepted what it could get, which was just a piece of paper.

5) Vladimir Putin is not einstein and Russia is not chocolate chip cookie Germany (or Stalin’s Soviet Union).

6)      There’s no genocide.

America must act to stop Russia from slaughtering helpless Ukrainians, some of Kiev’s most fervent advocates argue. The claim has emotional power, but is false. There have been an estimated 4800 deaths in the combat in the east. It’s a tragic toll, but includes Ukrainian separatists and loyalists, and Russians. When it comes to wars, that casualty list barely counts

8) Moscow has more at stake in Ukraine than the West has and will act accordingly.

In fact, the status of Ukraine matters far more to Moscow than to Washington. America has no interests of comparable strength regarding Ukraine. Imagine if the Soviet Union had proposed bringing Mexico into the Warsaw Pact after having helped oust a democratically elected government allied with America. Washington's reaction would have been swift, strong, and exceedingly hostile.

9)  Alliances should enhance U.S. security, not provide foreign charity.

Adding Ukraine (and Georgia) would be even more dangerous. Both have been at war with Russia. Both have had irresponsible political leadership. Both have an incentive to entangle the globe's superpower in their territorial disputes. Bringing them into NATO would dramatically degrade U.S. security by transforming minor conflicts irrelevant to Washington into potential military disputes between America and Russia.

10) A negotiated settlement is the only solution.

Ukrainians insist that Ukraine must be free to decide its own future. Yes, after the Second Coming, when the lion has lain down with the lamb. After people representing all the world's religions, ethnic groups, political philosophies, races, and everything else have joined together to sing "Kumbaya" around a global bonfire. [/b]After men and women again live in the Garden of Eden.



There is little reason to expect a Russia in crisis to be democratic and docile. Greater nationalism at home and adventurism abroad would be more likely. Western-style liberals would not be the natural beneficiaries of an implosion at home.

America and Europe should initiate discussions with Moscow, using sanctions as a negotiating tool rather than an endless penalty. A ceasefire should be policed by international monitors. Russia should acknowledge Ukraine's sovereignty and end military support for the rebels. Kiev should halt military operations and formalize further devolution of power on the Donbas. Ukraine should declare its military neutrality, endorsed by the West. Russia should accept Kiev's economic orientation both west and east.

Of course, Moscow also could say no. However, such an agreement would meet Putin's security concerns and halt Russia's economic slide. He is an authoritarian, not a fool. And if a diplomatic resolution is impossible, it is better to find out now than to do so only after suffering through an extended Cold War lite.
I mean, what have you got to lose? You know, you come from nothing, you're going back to nothing, what have you lost? Nothing!

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Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8387 on: February 28, 2015, 12:30:30 am »
+1
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8388 on: February 28, 2015, 01:20:48 am »
0
Quote
In a recent interview, Mr Nemtsov had said he feared Mr Putin would have him killed because of his opposition to the war in Ukraine.
Either he has considerable powers of divination, or Russia isn't a very safe place for journalists and political opposition of Putin. I wonder which.
Meaning lies as much
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Offline darmaster

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8389 on: February 28, 2015, 03:12:48 am »
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What's this 50 b c? Theffuck?
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Offline Vovka

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8390 on: February 28, 2015, 04:00:10 am »
-1
Russia opposition politician Boris Nemtsov shot dead
I don't like this
that awkward moment when you're dead more useful for supporters than alive  :?
also he is dead as politician for decades
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8391 on: February 28, 2015, 05:29:07 am »
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Yes, CIA did it, obviously. Or the jews.
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Offline Tibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8392 on: February 28, 2015, 10:14:19 am »
+1
Thats what happens when a countries high power supports extreme nationalism and shakes hand of every biker gang skinhead who tattoos a russian flag on his back. I highly doubt he got assassinated by the government, the Russian government just likes to throw the opposition into prison, but they hardly actually kill anyone(these days). Quite possible, it was just another pro-rus skinhead doing it to save his precious Motherland.

Tbh, I dont really see the logic in pro-russianism. In its base form its strongly against na zis and nationalism. Which is fine, but the paradox here is that at the same time it promotes russian nationalism and creates pro-rus skinheads, who hate foreigners and homosexuals just as same. I dont really get it. Its just countering angry skinheads with your own angry skinheads.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:23:54 am by Tibe »

Offline Oberyn

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8393 on: February 28, 2015, 10:30:21 am »
+1
Yeah, if Putin's government was behind it I'd expect a modicum of subtlety. More along the lines of polonium or unfortunate accident (plane crash, etc) than a public murder.
Concerning that article, the whole point of NATO was to contain the imperial ambitions of Russia in Europe. If the US thinks Russia is more important than a European country then the alliance is pointless. But we already knew NATO was centered entirely around american interests. The crocodile tears about the brave sacrifice and burden of protecting Europe has always been a load of propaganda bullshit. I agree it's not the US's problem, it's the EU's. As long as NATO exists the EU will never realize it's own potential.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:33:22 am by Oberyn »
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Offline Leshma

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8394 on: February 28, 2015, 02:40:21 pm »
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They used Polonium on Litvinenko because he was in foreign country. No need to use subtle methods on people residing in Russia, especially not now when propaganda is strong how whole world is against them. Probably done by some criminal thugs, but chances are that they were hired by FSB to kill. Our secret service did the same during 90s and they were trained by Soviets.

There is no patriotism here. Only crazy people kill for no reason, even skinheads and "patriots" kill for money.

Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8395 on: February 28, 2015, 03:02:21 pm »
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Well internet is already on fire, calling it CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy, as always.

Tomorrow's rally will be redirected to the place he got killed as well.
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Offline Vovka

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8396 on: February 28, 2015, 05:48:18 pm »
-1
   Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.
1st of March was planned next color march. I am sure that it would come to very few people, like the previous one. They are losing popularity. Nemcov shittalks agains goverment since 90's, when he worked with Berezovsky, and sold the lives of our guys in Chechnya. 10days ago he given interyuvyu "I'm afraid Putin will kill me",  2 days before march and boom Putin deside kill him, perfect time.

 Now march will be not in the suburbs of Moscow (as planned) but in the center near the site of his assassination (how convenient he killed near Kremlin).
I would not be surprised if tomorrow during the riots on the bridge someone will fall from the bridge or be crushed to death to escape the "na-zi action" Riot Putin police and all this ill be captured on cam
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Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8397 on: February 28, 2015, 05:51:03 pm »
+1
Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.

and where the hell did I write that
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Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8398 on: February 28, 2015, 06:03:44 pm »
0
   Yeah, CIA evil jewish zionconspiracy this is nonsense but FSB and putin is ok. nice logic.
Ever heard of Occam's razor?
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Offline Beauchamp

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #8399 on: February 28, 2015, 06:05:35 pm »
-1
it probably wasn't putler, because no polonium was involved. probably some of his deranged tovi like supporters did that.
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