Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

but I'm stupid, what the hell do I know, right?

Right 

Crimea wanted to seperate from Ukraine and they did it by referendum, in Kosovo there wasn't any referendum in 2008 they just stated independence by help of EU and USA. What the difference?

[Butan]

One single and simple fact stands for me and is decisive imo: The Green Men were Russian Special forces with big guns. End of story.

All that glitters is not gold.

X:" Side A did this." Y:"Side B did this." Z:"Side A/B did this."
What kind of discussion is this?

The best kind of discussion: where you can hear from every point of view.

[Kuujis]

Right 

Crimea wanted to seperate from Ukraine and they did it by referendum, in Kosovo there wasn't any referendum in 2008 they just stated independence by help of EU and USA. What the difference?

Back to that sham-at-the-point-of-a-gun again? Did you include those extra 100k citizens in sevastopol in your referendum of those votes were somehow NOT counted?

Also - check you countries official position regarding Kosovo, I think you might be surprised ;) CBA to even start on the differences... For you there seem to be none between your dear Tatarstan and Crimea/East Ukraine, so... pointless to argue.

[Lt_Anders]

Back to that sham-at-the-point-of-a-gun again? Did you include those extra 100k citizens in sevastopol in your referendum of those votes were somehow NOT counted?

Also - check you countries official position regarding Kosovo, I think you might be surprised ;) CBA to even start on the differences... For you there seem to be none between your dear Tatarstan and Crimea/East Ukraine, so... pointless to argue.

On 29 November 2009, Ambassador Konuzin said that Russia will continue to help Serbia "defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity". He also said that "Kosovo echoes in the hearts of all Russians with the same pain as it does in your hearts".

In March 2014, Russia used Kosovo's declaration of independence as a justification for accepting Crimea's independence.

Welp, that was a 360 about face.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia's_reaction_to_the_2008_Kosovo_declaration_of_independence

[DonNicko]

I know russian reaction, so who is right here? Russian supported Crimea but didn't support Kosovo. EU and USA supported Kosovo but didn't support Crimea, I meant what the difference here? I don't say that Russia is right in all things, but Russia didn't started it first. It's a political game, and who thinks that only Russia is an evil in my opninon act like Kuujis

[Lt_Anders]

I know russian reaction, so who is right here? Russian supported Crimea but didn't support Kosovo. EU and USA supported Kosovo but didn't support Crimea, I meant what the difference here? I don't say that Russia is right in all things, but Russia didn't started it first. It's a political game, and who thinks that only Russia is an evil in my opninon act like Kuujis

Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"

[Kuujis]

Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"

And the spiderpig-sheeps are real... o shi... imma gonna hide now 

[DonNicko]

Point is: Russia does not accept the validity of a country declaring, without external help influence or otherwise, independence. In fact, they made a point of stating that this "independence" broke multiple international laws and used their power on the Security Council to attempt to enforce something.

This is the exact same situation in Crimea, except for 2 points. 1) Russian Troops "oversaw" the election, leading to the (verified) claim of more votes than people and a sham election. 2) The Election was held under duress, and instead of going to ICJ or other international institution for validity, Russia said it's Free and booted out international talks. Serbia has done both the ICJ route (no Illegality there) and has recently started talks and hearings (2013 Brussels) to arrange the actual independence/ownership of Kosovo.

So, If Russia back out now, and as part of it, made UKRAINE Guarentee a fair election in Crimea now, then everyone would stick by the results. But that would require RUSSIA to renounce Crimea and Guarentee a redo election Held 3 months(or whatever diplomats agree on) after the renounciation of "Independent Crimea"

Thanks, much better then Kuujis.
As I know in Kosovo was NATO's special forces, and there wasn't any elections just parliament stated the independense. For me the same:
1) NATO's special forces = Russian special forces
2) if you wish sham elections (about votes oficial data is OK, just some statements of public people are not, Crimea invited all organizations, but they refused invitation, more then 100 visitors from different country controlled it) = parliament decision
About another referendum maybe it can be, but I think the result will be the same

[Lt_Anders]

And the spiderpig-sheeps are real... o shi... imma gonna hide now 

WHAT?

Thanks, much better then Kuujis.
As I know in Kosovo was NATO's special forces, and there wasn't any elections just parliament stated the independense. For me the same:
1) NATO's special forces = Russian special forces
2) if you wish sham elections (about votes oficial data is OK, just some statements of public people are not, Crimea invited all organizations, but they refused invitation, more then 100 visitors from different country controlled it) = parliament decision
About another referendum maybe it can be, but I think the result will be the same

Ah, but there is a difference. There was no NATO troops there(from what I've read), and it wasn't declared(initially) by the governing body of Kosovo. The referendum was started by parties not involved in any official government capacity and garnered enough votes and power to say: Hey, this is happening. Had the vote actually been started by the governing body, the ICJ would have declared it illegal and improper.(This has happened in Ukraine, though, with Crimea.)

[DonNicko]

Ah, but there is a difference. There was no NATO troops there(from what I've read), and it wasn't declared(initially) by the governing body of Kosovo. The referendum was started by parties not involved in any official government capacity and garnered enough votes and power to say: Hey, this is happening. Had the vote actually been started by the governing body, the ICJ would have declared it illegal and improper.(This has happened in Ukraine, though, with Crimea.)

Well, The Kosovo Force (KFOR) is a NATO-led international peacekeeping force which was responsible for establishing a secure environment in Kosovo = for me they are special forces. If you are talking about referebdum in 1990 then I accept your statement, but in 2008 it was just a declaration of independence by the Assembly of Kosovo. There wasn't any referendum in 2008 as I read. So for me there are double standarts as from EU/USA as from Russia. As ICJ accepted it, I think it could be just a political action

[Lt_Anders]

Well, The Kosovo Force (KFOR) is a NATO-led international peacekeeping force which was responsible for establishing a secure environment in Kosovo = for me they are special forces. If you are talking about referebdum in 1990 then I accept your statement, but in 2008 it was just a declaration of independence by the Assembly of Kosovo. There wasn't any referendum in 2008 as I read. So for me there are double standarts as from EU/USA as from Russia. As ICJ accepted it, I think it could be just a political action

Isn't the job of a court to be impartial? I only really read the ICJ reasons for the validity of Kosovo, and the main reason, was that it wasn't proclaimed by the governing body but by a (mostly) majority of a different kinda, and then later, ratified/accepted by a (mostly) majority governing body. Still, once again, unlike Crimea.

"the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008 did not violate general international law because international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo%27s_declaration_of_independence

[Anuran]

"Get your guns, fight the Russian pigs, the Germans, the jewish pigs and other scum." -Oleh Tyahnybok, 2004

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He was kicked out of the parliament then because of his massive anti-semitic and demagogic statements.

Nowadays supported by:

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And by certain people here indirectly.

[DonNicko]

Isn't the job of a court to be impartial? I only really read the ICJ reasons for the validity of Kosovo, and the main reason, was that it wasn't proclaimed by the governing body but by a (mostly) majority of a different kinda, and then later, ratified/accepted by a (mostly) majority governing body. Still, once again, unlike Crimea.

"the declaration of independence of the 17th of February 2008 did not violate general international law because international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Court_of_Justice_advisory_opinion_on_Kosovo%27s_declaration_of_independence

Well I don't see much differences. Political game is a political game.

[Lt_Anders]

Well I don't see much differences. Political game is a political game.

Political Game? Now, that's just denying things and passing it off. So, if the ICJ said Crimea was Illegal, would you concur?(In it's current form, It would, but if there was a REDO, without Russian Troops, then it would be exactly the same as Kosovo, and Russia, Serbia, China do not want that. In fact, China has actually stated that it is concerned with Russian annexation of Crimea. It listed itself under this category: "Support for Ukrainian territorial integrity" and has yet to agree that Crimea was annexed. (This is due to the fact that if that happens, large swaths of China can "Go independent" and they do not want that)

But that's a different issue.

Kosovo is actually a (far better) case over Tartarstan (which seems to be not as Free as it is, but that's only from what I have read and is probably very biased). I feel your statements in this area are more like Ostrich behavior and just "stick head in sand" and ignore something that doesn't make sense. This seems to be the typical response in instances like this, from Russian media and sources(or they just spin it to something else).

You're smart, read it up(if you can, I'm not sure of your English language skills and I only speak English so there's no way I can get some of your best sources and if you are hard of English, you cannot get mine. You do seem capable, but I will assume that you are not, so as to believe that some of what I say is lost in translation and errors that I honestly have not perceived)

Now, as for all this, I will declare that I tend to lean "Pro-UKR, Anti-Russia," but I'm more worried, honestly, about how my Country, the US fails at Foreign Policy(Our president doesn't go to his Intelligence and Foreign policy meetings... ). This is a "flashpoint" and clearly shows how US is to twisted on itself to care(and that's a good thing. Leave EU to EU, honestly).

I need to stop, wasted 15 minutes at work on this, argh!

[Yarl]

Всем крымских вин, например!
go crimea