Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

Then watch again, the comander said it

[Kuujis]

Then watch again, the comander said it

Can you point me to the exact time?

Otherwise I can only guess, that you are talking about the fact, that Ukrainian troops had the right to shoot anyone crossing into the territory of the bases without authorization, which they DID on few occasions, but this is VERY far from ordering to "shoot civilians". If you consider this an order to shoot civilians - then all prison guards, lots of personal security firms, police and whole bunch of other situations constitute "an order to shoot civilians", which is plain and simple bullshit... unless you are a spiderpig-sheep and desperately want to keep your belief in... whatever the hell putlers media tells you to believe...[sic].

[DonNicko]

6:34-6:40

[Kuujis]

6:34-6:40

The commander of the batalion thinks, that the order to use weapons against civilians and russian military trying to enter Ukrainian military bases is a violation of law. This is his oppinion, I understand him, but this is anything but the order to shoot civilians directly, as you seem to wish it to sound. Only 10% of soldiers have no problem shooting at people, all others are more likely to imitate firing, than actually aiming and firing. Same with commanders. No news here. And as I said - there were other bases, where commanders ordered fire and fire WAS opened on bunch of russian sheeps trying to capture a base. Again - no problem with that from my side, if one is an idiot of this scale - one deserves a Darwin award.

If you enter presidents palace - you may get shot. If you enter prison - you may get shot. If you enter in a bank, where a private entity decides, that you should not be entering - you may get shot. I do not see a problem with it. This is NOT an order to shoot civilians, this is an order to defend military bases, which is understandable and reasonable, given the aggression by russia. Whether this was a good, timely and wise order - is a secondary question. What problem do you have with it? You think, that some imported tourists from russia masquerading in casual clothes + some brainwashed locals should have full right to stroll around in Ukrainian bases wherever they want doing what ever they want during the aggression by foreign country? You that much spiderpig-sheep? You want them to bend over harder, so that rapist has an easier time fucking them? As if internal underst was not enough.

[DonNicko]

There was an order to shoot civilians who capture the bases, but soldiers didn't.

That what I said, you again trying to accuse me in what I didn't said, and you again trying to make conclisions from the air, I said  go to Crimea and ask people there, russian hater

[Kuujis]

That what I said, you again trying to accuse me in what I didn't said, and you again trying to make conclisions from the air, I said  go to Crimea and ask people there, russian hater

Well... yes... I have misread that, I am sorry. I fell for the red herring as a true fool.

Lets get back to the age old russian tradition of occupying via sham referendums

Official announcements about number of voters, which would point to a sudden increase of number of voters by 100k in a city of 100k (which basically means DOUBLING the population, traffic jams and what not) is not proof enough... only for spiderpigs "in putlers russia" (c).

And by extension of your " nobody knows the real number of people living in Crimea" - how can you confidently state, that the vote was legit then? If you don't know how many voters there were - maybe only 1/3rd came to vote, other being afraid? Try to avoid biting your own tail next time.

Regarding the orders to shoot civilians - you will won't mind me asking for some sort of proofs, links, stories about this? Because I recall Simon Ostrovsky visiting SEVERAL bases with his vice news dispatches, where the soldiers, due to orders received, put their weapons into storage to avoid any "missunderstandings" or provocations. We are talking about the same Crimea?

[DonNicko]

I say again go to the Crimea and ask people

[Molly]

I say again go to the Crimea and ask people

No u!

[DonNicko]

No u!

Me was

[Kuujis]

Me was

You mean those tatars, who are prohibited from returning to Crimea? Or those thousands of refugees, who had to leave? This "go and ask" works both ways. THAT is why you need comprehensive, open, free and legal referendum, not some sham at the point of a gun, which in fact was not much else than annexation of Ukraines land by putlers russia.

[DonNicko]

You mean those tatars, who are prohibited from returning to Crimea? Or those thousands of refugees, who had to leave? This "go and ask" works both ways. THAT is why you need comprehensive, open, free and legal referendum, not some sham at the point of a gun, which in fact was not much else than annexation of Ukraines land by putlers russia.

Go and ask both if you want, but not only one side as you prefer

[Kuujis]

Go and ask both if you want, but not only one side as you prefer

See, that is the very problem I have. There was NO proper asking everyone involved, there was NO proper formulation of questions, there was NO open, proper debate. There was a sham referendum at the point of foreign gun, which you uphold as "good enough". How this oxymoron fits in your head - I have no clue.

There are good reasons NOT to start redrawing borders of countries due to agitated populace CURRENTLY living in a given region of one country or another. This is how wars started in the past, this is how russia with its propaganda started a civil war in east Ukraine and only due to Ukraine's weakness militarily and their unwillingness to start the bloodshed it did not happen in Crimea first.

Giving up Crimea in retrospective only confirmed, that letting the bully have its way only increases its appetite, not satisfy it.

Also - some more good news-making from russia with love: http://www.bbc.co.uk/monitoring/russian-tv-uses-crash-pictures-in-mass-grave-report

And to boot - an interesting lecture about nationalism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a6j17VWhBc TLDR thing, that the guy tries to convey is that "Nationalism is constructed and not naturally appearing phenomenon". I'm not entirely sure I buy all of his arguments, but if you do - it would basically mean that there had to be a party to this conflict which constructed the artificial russian nationalism in Crimea, so that this whole annexation BS would pass through "with support", and the only party strong enough to do this was russian state controlled media. One has to recognize this, learn from it and act accordingly.

[Tovi]

But what do you want exactly ? People of Crimea taking weapons against Kiev's troop ? Because this is what's happening in the Donbass.
What would you say so ? Russia force them to fight ?
A referendum is much more pacific and democratic than a civil war. But if you refuse it, then you'll have a civil war (or an independance war).

[Kuujis]

But what do you want exactly ? People of Crimea taking weapons against Kiev's troop ? Because this is what's happening in the Donbass.
What would you say so ? Russia force them to fight ?
A referendum is much more pacific and democratic than a civil war. But if you refuse it, then you'll have a civil war (or an independance war).

What referendum you are talking about? The sham-shit at the point of a foreign gun under full influence of state controlled russian propaganda media coupled with absurd lies? Thats the "referendum" you are talking about? With the whole extra 100k of votes in Sevastopol? You still insist on calling it something else than a sham?

I would say this: assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression. What one does when faced with aggression? Defend. Retaliate if possible.

[DonNicko]

What referendum you are talking about? The sham-shit at the point of a foreign gun under full influence of state controlled russian propaganda media coupled with absurd lies? Thats the "referendum" you are talking about? With the whole extra 100k of votes in Sevastopol? You still insist on calling it something else than a sham?

I would say this: assaulting Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity, be it via propaganda filled lying media or via a gun is the same: aggression. What one does when faced with aggression? Defend. Retaliate if possible.

Kuujis did you see official numbers of voters? I think no
There were 1 month for both propoganda just there wasn't any movements from Kiev. So how will you call that sittuation that most of the crimenians wanted to be separate from Kiev and with help of foreign country they did it. So you think if people are propoganded then they must be killed? First of all there were both propoganda availiable for East Ukraine, why they chose russian one ask them. And I want to know what do you think about 3500 dead civilians and 48 dead people in Odessa?