Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 627450 times)

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Offline Angantyr

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6555 on: September 13, 2014, 02:53:07 pm »
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Sorry wrong topic.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 02:58:04 pm by Angantyr »

Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6556 on: September 13, 2014, 03:22:08 pm »
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And what does NATO get from its new puppet? The perfect ground from which to situate "anti-ballistic missile" batteries, in a NATO attempt to nullify Russia's nuclear deterrent, a deterrent which guarantees Russia's sovereignty.

ABM batteries would be nowhere near nullifying RF nuclear potential. Not even scratch the potential. They have 100's of ICBM's, most of them would go over the polar ice cap, their ICBM launchers are placed all over their territory, much of it in the far east.  In addition to that you have a very solid SLBM/Nuclear subs that could single handedly destroy half of the US if not whole.   :rolleyes:

It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

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That Thomeck-delay-kicking bussiness is like that asshole-retard dude that fucks your sister sometimes.

Offline Murmillus_Prime

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6557 on: September 13, 2014, 04:10:29 pm »
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ABM batteries would be nowhere near nullifying RF nuclear potential. Not even scratch the potential. They have 100's of ICBM's, most of them would go over the polar ice cap, their ICBM launchers are placed all over their territory, much of it in the far east.  In addition to that you have a very solid SLBM/Nuclear subs that could single handedly destroy half of the US if not whole.   :rolleyes:

It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

Iran has no nuclear warheads nor the capability to deliver a payload to Europe. Paranoid crazy minds of the U.S Neocon hawks complicit with the Israeli political establishment has led to harsh sanctions on Iran by Zionist and Zionist supporting states first for merely overthrowing a Western backed/installed government and now for developing a nuclear energy and medical program, not a nuclear weapons program. Even if the shield was actually aimed at Iran, there is little to no reason to shield ones self from a non-existent threat.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 06:28:30 pm by Murmillus_Prime »
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6558 on: September 13, 2014, 04:39:54 pm »
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Offline Anuran

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6559 on: September 13, 2014, 04:45:59 pm »
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Anti-missile-system in eastern Europe

Offline Turkhammer

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6560 on: September 13, 2014, 05:27:09 pm »
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It's just physics. Catching up to and disabling such gigantic and quick rockets if they are just a little far away is nigh-on impossible, unless you try to intercept them in their ballistic phase. A third option is to try and take them out with nuclear AA missiles like the ABM system around Moscow.

Placing them however was however an idiotic idea born in the paranoid crazy minds of the Bush administration. And I sincerely believe they believed it would be aimed at Iran.  :rolleyes: RF has used it for max political gain.

Well actually the ICBMs are vulnerable in the launch phase while they are still in a vertical trajectory and slower than when they are at high altitude and higher velocity.  The first ABMs in Europe were placed when the Reagan administration was in office.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6561 on: September 13, 2014, 06:37:02 pm »
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No conspiracy, no.

There is a strange lack of information in the media, though, concerning the possible (if not probable) United States involvement in Ukraine prior to the public outrage of Russian involvement.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/20/a_new_cold_war_ukraine_violence

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/fuck-the-eu-frustrated-nuland-says-to-pyatt-in-alleged-leaked-phone-call-336373.html

If this is true, it changes how the conflict is viewed.

The two main "pieces of evidence" (the nuland phone call and the presentation) are only evidence if one insists on interpreting all the material as such. They do not refute the hypothesis that the West didn't do anything wrong here. An example of evidence which actually proves something is the study of the MH17 crash site showing that the plane got hit by a G2A missile, hence refuting the hypothesis that the plane got hit by weapons mounted on a jet (even disregarding the problem of making the jet and the MH17 plane meet close enough despite the jet's inability to keep up the speed and difficulty in reaching the right altitude).

I mean, what would the United States do if Russia influenced elements in Mexico and caused a democratically elected government to be replaced with one with closer ties to Russia?

Actually Russia is trying to do that, they are just much less successful. Mexicans, just like Ukrainians, prefer to side with prosperous democracies. Unlike Ukraine however, Mexico isn't subject to rampant election fraud and infiltration from Russian agents. NGOs backed by the Russian government are either old and independent (Greenpeace) or completely lack legitimacy. Even Iran is backing NGOs claiming to be defending human rights. The only way Russia can further its influence today is using military power, and to some degree Russian propaganda that has an audience outside of the country (Crimea and Eastern Ukraine). For that reason Russia is not even close to a point at which it could influence Mexico into anything, whereas the appeal of democracy radiates everywhere peacefully (sounds preachy right?), and NATO powers are associated with democracy much more than Russia ever was.

More importantly, this question tries to view the conflict as a Cold War chessboard even though there's still very little evidence that both players are there, or that there is even a chessboard. A better question would be "what would Russia do if Ukraine influenced elements in Siberia into independence?".


By the way I'm adding Murmillus to my ignore list. After I spent time carefully refuting his points the best he could come up with was this:

Since geopolitics is the driving force behind the crisis and disasters we see on the news whether in the Middle-East or in East Europe, geopolitics is key when discussing these matters. To write off geopolitics as a driving point behind these matters is just proof of your ignorance on the matter.

Which is a completely circular argument (if even that). Honestly I'm not surprised, if a little bit disappointed. Hopefully I'll be able to have an enriching exchange with Kalam or Angantyr. I also invite everyone else to ignore Murmillus from now on, as that would at least fulfill his fantasy of being persecuted by brainless sheeple.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 06:56:27 pm by Kafein »

Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6562 on: September 13, 2014, 07:08:25 pm »
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Actually Russia is trying to do that, they are just much less successful. Mexicans, just like Ukrainians, prefer to side with prosperous democracies.

Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.

Offline Anuran

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6563 on: September 13, 2014, 07:18:40 pm »
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An example of evidence which actually proves something is the study of the MH17 crash site showing that the plane got hit by a G2A missile, hence refuting the hypothesis that the plane got hit by weapons mounted on a jet (even disregarding the problem of making the jet and the MH17 plane meet close enough despite the jet's inability to keep up the speed and difficulty in reaching the right altitude).

This is/was the cockpit:
(click to show/hide)


I will translate an article about the downing of MH17 later.

Offline Molly

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6564 on: September 13, 2014, 07:21:20 pm »
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Name one country (that isnt part of the Russia federation) that has been taken under control by Russia or attempted to.
And "prosperous democracies", please?  democracies are massively corrupted and manipulated, prosperity-wise US/EU and most countries which applied to their influence circlejerk are on a downward slope.
I bet your mum, your dad, yourself and the rest of your family lived pretty damn well of and in those bad, bad democracies... Evil they are, actually providing for their population. EVIIIL!
When west germany annexed east germany, nobody moved a finger too.

Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6565 on: September 13, 2014, 07:37:24 pm »
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I bet your mum, your dad, yourself and the rest of your family lived pretty damn well of and in those bad, bad democracies... Evil they are, actually providing for their population. EVIIIL!

You mean the democracies with massive unemployment (murica, for example, has a record 90 million people not working or looking for work) and record welfare signups/EBT use

PROSPERITY

Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6566 on: September 13, 2014, 07:46:14 pm »
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You mean the democracies with massive unemployment (murica, for example, has a record 90 million people not working or looking for work) and record welfare signups/EBT use

PROSPERITY
Uh... what? What does unemployment and welfare signups have to do with living pretty damn well? In lots of western countries you get paid a lot better for not working than you do when working in shitty former SU countries... with the added bonus of, y'know, not having to work.
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Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6567 on: September 13, 2014, 07:49:25 pm »
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Uh... what? What does unemployment and welfare signups have to do with living pretty damn well? In lots of western countries you get paid a lot better for not working than you do when working in shitty former SU countries... with the added bonus of, y'know, not having to work.

You mean living off me, the working man.  And I apologize, the current figure is over 100 million lazy fat fucks in Burgerstan not in the workforce

Such prosperous.

Offline Xant

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6568 on: September 13, 2014, 07:51:01 pm »
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You mean living off me, the working man.  And I apologize, the current figure is over 100 million lazy fat fucks in Burgerstan not in the workforce

Such prosperous.
Yes, living off you, the working man - because the countries are so PROSPEROUS that they can afford to pay even those not working a lot of money. You do realize that "dey r living off me" is not an argument at all. Whether they are living off you or the neighbor's dog, the fact remains that they can still live comfortable lives with wages above those of the average working man in FSU countries.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 07:54:52 pm by Xant »
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Offline lombardsoup

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #6569 on: September 13, 2014, 07:56:03 pm »
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Yes, living off you, the working man - because the countries are so PROSPEROUS that they can afford to pay even those not working a lot of money. You do realize that "dey r living off me" is not an argument at all.

Please come and visit Burgerstan so you can witness the thousands of 600lb fatties swiping EBT, then rolling out of the grocery stores, cart wheels breaking, filled with junk food.

Meanwhile we can't even fix our basic infrastructure (roads, electrical grid, internet, etc) because we're too busy giving all of the money to the fat white trash.