Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Molly]

Guess we can expect Red Coats invading Scotland soon again if Murmi had a say in it

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


FOR THE HIGHLANDS!

[Kafein]

Most of the bullshit about Russia invading has not even been proved either and yet I've seen this accusation being spread around more than once here.

Trying to change the subject, are we?

Admittedly you'd need a little bit of patience to watch these videos through, and I don't really expect those of you holding opposing views to do so, but you asked me to back shit up and I've provided these videos two of which have ex intelligence officials giving their own perspective on the Western agenda in Ukrainne, and two videos sources from an alternate media outlet which provides video evidence of American governmental officials openly speaking of meddling in Ukrainian politics. These videos are telling and I believe the first two are particularly important as these people have been in the Western intelligence circles and have been privy to information the likes of you and me would be completely in the dark about.

Actually I watched all those videos, and to no surprise none of them provide convincing (or new) elements, see below.

Of course as I mentioned many pages ago, all the evidence you need when trying to understand Western complicity in Ukraine is the fact that after the coup suddenly offers of IMF loans are being pulled out of the IMF's arse and given to Ukraine, loans the IMF were not prepared to give Ukraine while the elected and legitimate Yanukovych government was in power. I believe the IMF's willingness to give Ukraine loans after the Wests puppet has been installed is tantamount to bribery and financial subversion, that money won't see the poor masses in Ukraine, it will stay in the pockets of Oligarchs like Poroshenko.

The IMF offers loans according to a multitude of factors. That the loans were offered after the coup is proof of what exactly?

Foreign Intervention and the Ukraine Crisis

Self-proclaimed "geopolitical experts" (who seem only to have personal websites to their name) and emotionally supercharged commentary. Zero actual evidence of NATO, EU, US or IMF destabilization of Ukraine (supporting civil society and democratic institutions isn't the same as funding rebels or an uprising). Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.

Former U.S. Intelligence Officer Says U.S. Orchestrated Coup In Ukraine

RT News, emotionally supercharged, random interviewed individual with random views presented as some sort of authority. Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.

Stratfor Founder Admits Ukraine Is U.S. Regime Change Puppet (I'm posting a FOX NEWS clip, cringe! Although an interview with the Statfor founder,

Pro-Western government doesn't imply a government that was installed by western agencies. For example, the last Belgian government was pro-western, and was elected democratically. The interviewed person never says or implies that EuroMaidan was orchestrated by western forces.

Proof Ukraine Crisis Was Manufactured By U.S. Government - GMN Wake-Up Call

Same arguments I already showed to be inconclusive. Also, proof that the western conspiracy is supporting Maidan with cookies. Even more amusingly, "false flag operations" that are not even publicized by the "western propaganda machine" (ever hear of the Odessa fire in mainstream media? Not much if any).

U.S. Asst Sec of State Victoria Nuland Openly Discussing Ukraine Subversion & Overthrow

They are only discussing subversion and overthrow if you absolutely insist on systematically interpreting what they say in that way. In fact it's all very generic commentary on pro-democracy protests and violent government response. They had almost the same talks about the Turkish anti-Erdogan protests.




The first thing that immediately strikes me as wrong with the "Maidan was a western coup" rethoric is that it wasn't even a coup, regardless of who or what caused it. For reference, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat is a coup (and one the US knowingly let happen even though they could prevent it). Notice the differences?

[Murmillus_Prime]

Two more BS's, which were hammered into your thick head by RT, LifeNews and some other "relevant and unbiased" channels...

The fact, that presindent was ousted and then got impeached after running away DOES NOT invalidate legally ellected parliament OR the ministers they chose.

Yeah... guns of a fringe right-ist movement, which got like 2 or 3 % votes created a coup. Can I get an address of your dealer? Because the shit you are smoking seems to be good.

Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.

[Kafein]

Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.

You are just going to ignore me, are you?

[Butan]

Butan at least seems to consider different view points. You just swoosh them away with some live leak videos... "I saw this on the interwebs!"

 

How is it, that an almost BROKE nation is able to afford mercenaries is WAY beyond me..

Ukraine is broke also BECAUSE they do war and its 100% sure mercenaries are involved. They always are, no need to find proof, because mercenaries are at their home in wars; and like prostitutes and smugglers, they will always exist.

I wouldnt be surprised Poroshenko oligarch circle used their personal wealth to assure they stay in a relative state of security and stability, else they would fall from power, "artificially" increasing the economical output of Ukraine.
Some very rich people in Ukraine are famously known for funding militia and investing in military projects, why not in mercs?
There is also the possibility of external help, hard to trace back to who and why and if they even exist!

The same is true for russian friendly oligarchs FROM UKRAINE, funding rebels and mercs. A part of the Yanukovitch oligarch circle remained loyal and are still "in action"; some became "neutral" and some joined the new government in their fight for territorial control.

(click to show/hide)

I had to go back 2-3 pages to find something relatively interesting to quote/discuss   stop spamming!

[Murmillus_Prime]

Trying to change the subject, are we?

Actually I watched all those videos, and to no surprise none of them provide convincing (or new) elements, see below.

The IMF offers loans according to a multitude of factors. That the loans were offered after the coup is proof of what exactly?

Self-proclaimed "geopolitical experts" (who seem only to have personal websites to their name) and emotionally supercharged commentary. Zero actual evidence of NATO, EU, US or IMF destabilization of Ukraine (supporting civil society and democratic institutions isn't the same as funding rebels or an uprising). Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.

RT News, emotionally supercharged, random interviewed individual with random views presented as some sort of authority. Use of the term "coup" or "revolution" even though it doesn't correspond to the situation. No military forces were used on the Maidan side, and President Yanukovich simply fled the country. The parliament did not change.


Pro-Western government doesn't imply a government that was installed by western agencies. For example, the last Belgian government was pro-western, and was elected democratically. The interviewed person never says or implies that EuroMaidan was orchestrated by western forces.

Same arguments I already showed to be inconclusive. Also, proof that the western conspiracy is supporting Maidan with cookies. Even more amusingly, "false flag operations" that are not even publicized by the "western propaganda machine" (ever hear of the Odessa fire in mainstream media? Not much if any).

They are only discussing subversion and overthrow if you absolutely insist on systematically interpreting what they say in that way. In fact it's all very generic commentary on pro-democracy protests and violent government response. They had almost the same talks about the Turkish anti-Erdogan protests.




The first thing that immediately strikes me as wrong with the "Maidan was a western coup" rethoric is that it wasn't even a coup, regardless of who or what caused it. For reference, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat is a coup (and one the US knowingly let happen even though they could prevent it). Notice the differences?

There we go, attacking the sources more than the information provided and the information you did absorb you blatantly reject as some form of propaganda from "random" indviduals... Nuland pretty much admits her complicity in the whole mess and you completely ignore that, there's something wrong up there inside your head.

[Molly]

You are just going to ignore me, are you?

Nah, he just doesn't know how multiple quotes work. Give him a few minutes...

Edit: See?

[Kuujis]

Ukraine is broke also BECAUSE they do war and its 100% sure mercenaries are involved. They always are, no need to find proof, because mercenaries are at their home in wars; and like prostitutes and smugglers, they will always exist.

You know, when you can choose - thousands of semi-free guys to arm and supply Vs few hundred of terribadly expensive ones... IDK, I would probably NOT choose the latter. But its speculation. Again - Occams Razor - its much more simple to equipe and send in guys who are already available and there instead of looking for something artificial and extra.

I wouldnt be surprised Poroshenko oligarch circle used their personal wealth to assure they stay in a relative state of security and stability, else they would fall from power, "artificially" increasing the economical output of Ukraine.
Some very rich people in Ukraine are famously known for funding militia and investing in military projects, why not in mercs?
There is also the possibility of external help, hard to trace back to who and why and if they even exist!

The same is true for russian friendly oligarchs FROM UKRAINE, funding rebels and mercs. A part of the Yanukovitch oligarch circle remained loyal and are still "in action"; some became "neutral" and some joined the new government in their fight for territorial control.

This I was thinking of also, but as far as I'm aware - there are a few oligarchs, who are funding the batalions. They still can't supply heavy armor and other heavier weaponry, since by law it can be used by military only, but I believe that lighter troops ARE being armed by these oligarchs. Again - there is a readily available number of volunteers which are not as expensive as mercs. Private sector, despite their potential in corruption, is notoriously touchy about money, thus even more - why overpay, when you can take what you already have?

Percentage of the vote does not equate the right sectors influence and complicity in the riots that preceded the coup. They were armed, and they had shot people and police, and they had sent death threats to Yanukovych and his family.

Now this lie you have to base on something. Preferably something better than the impartial putlers media and "I believe" (I'm not going to even suggest "I think" in this case).
You want to see armed coup? Look at Crimea. And look at failed attempt in eastern Ukraine. Maidan, compared to those two, WAS something one would call grass-roots event, while those other two... russia orchestrated bullshit AT BEST, blatant attack on Ukraine at worst.

[Corwin]

Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?

[Kuujis]

Murmi's logic is pretty shitty. However, if you believe that at least US (since there are no evidence supporting involvement of other Western govs) was not deeply engaged in Maidan and events after Maidan, you are beyond naive.

ONE phone conversation was intercepted and that was enough to sugest that US is actually deciding who should and who shouldn't be sitting in UKR government. How about hundreds of other phone conversations that public has no idea about?

While I DO agree, that US HAD interests and WERE playing there, just as russians did, the "its only one intercepted call" card plays both ways. E.g. if this is THE WORST they could intercept and publish - their involvement is what I would expect, not something like "lets pump up propaganda and gather 100k people in the square to oust the president"...  Btw - that last one - I don't thing it would have succeeded. Yanukovich tried and failed, so...

[Corwin]

Diplomats, as a rule, use safe methods of communication. I think US is more advanced in this than any other country. I don't think it is easy to intercept any kind of diplomatic communication of US. This incident was someones blunder.

Therefore, I don't think there were any other conversations that were intercepted and recorded.

[Kafein]

There we go, attacking the sources more than the information provided and the information you did absorb you blatantly reject as some form of propaganda from "random" indviduals...

The information provided is not proof of its own validity. Just because someone calls themselves the "truth channel" or "international expert" doesn't mean they tell the truth. Most of those videos don't even qualify as information, but rather commentary about information which is not revealed (because the actual information they are commenting on does not exist). It's quite amazing that "underground channels" seemingly encouraging critical thinking are so determined to interpret every piece of information following their own narrative without a shred of doubt. If you want some investigative journalism you have to highlight discrepancies in the supposedly biased narrative you are fighting, not build theories upon the facts and present them as the only possible interpretation.

Nuland pretty much admits her complicity in the whole mess and you completely ignore that, there's something wrong up there inside your head.

No, she does not. Even if we assume for a moment that the famous "leaked call" is not a fabrication (I can't prove one way or the other), what she said hardly qualifies as proof of a western-orchestrated overthrow of Yanukovich. She is talking about the negotiations to form an interim government capable of representing the EuroMaidan protesters and to organize new elections quickly. As the western powers are a logical ally of the new power in Ukraine, it only makes sense that they have an input in this. Such things happen between for example France and Germany at almost every election. Ukraine is independent of the RF and can choose with who they associate.

[Molly]

Diplomats, as a rule, use safe methods of communication. I think US is more advanced in this than any other country. I don't think it is easy to intercept any kind of diplomatic communication of US. This incident was someones blunder.

Therefore, I don't think there were any other conversations that were intercepted and recorded.

What makes you think that there aren't any other records made once there actually was access to the phone. Seems very unlikely to me that you happen to record just one single call when you're already "in".
Just someone screwing up seems even more unlikely when it happens with such an incriminating single call.

[Kuujis]

What makes you think that there aren't any other records made once there actually was access to the phone. Seems very unlikely to me that you happen to record just one single call when you're already "in".
Just someone screwing up seems even more unlikely when it happens with such an incriminating single call.

They are made. But they are so TERRIBLE, that they would constitute Casus Belli from putlers side and he would have to go to war to protect his shortnessdignity for the good of his mojorussia!. So no-one wants to make them public. NWO does not allow it.

Tru story. Heard it inside my head! 

[Butan]

You know, when you can choose - thousands of semi-free guys to arm and supply Vs few hundred of terribadly expensive ones... IDK, I would probably NOT choose the latter. But its speculation. Again - Occams Razor - its much more simple to equipe and send in guys who are already available and there instead of looking for something artificial and extra.

Militias suck donkey dick in actual fight and they also cost money! I dont remember the exact pay, but probably a few hundreds dollars per month per head. Time this by 100-200 000 and you have quite a nice fuckton of money for a fuckton of green horns.

Numbers count ofc, but I wouldnt avoid investing 1% of that budget into reliable heavily armed and professionaly trained gentlemen who will do very hard damage wherever they go, and sometimes die before receiving paycheck!

This I was thinking of also, but as far as I'm aware - there are a few oligarchs, who are funding the batalions. They still can't supply heavy armor and other heavier weaponry, since by law it can be used by military only, but I believe that lighter troops ARE being armed by these oligarchs. Again - there is a readily available number of volunteers which are not as expensive as mercs. Private sector, despite their potential in corruption, is notoriously touchy about money, thus even more - why overpay, when you can take what you already have?Now this lie you have to base on something. Preferably something better than the impartial putlers media and "I believe" (I'm not going to even suggest "I think" in this case).

Never said they were buying tanks and shit, at least not via direct channels, but a few of them have been very open about using their personal wealth to help their country.
I would not be surprised if other rich people were not "as open" in what they are doing right now in Ukraine, I can assume that there is a rich people coalition that is indirectly controlling part of the government, at least where money is heavily involved and a necessity that outpass reglementation and respect of the law.