Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Christo]

Whataboutism at its fucking best

[Murmillus_Prime]

Whataboutism at its fucking best

Oh another term used by someone whom argues without any real substantial points to make. Whatabouttery, or as I see it hypocrisy, double standards, UNDERMINE CREDIBILITY. International law is not exempt from this principle.

On another note...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/08/donetsk-pro-russia-rebels-ukrainian-junta

Crowds of civilians, mainly women (their sons are probably on the front line defending their region from the Ukrainian regime), seem content thus far with the rebels ability to hold fast against the Ukrainian regime which utilises neo-Na zi regiments of volunteers and mercenaries against its own citizens in the East.

I quote. "We loved Ukraine until they started bombing us, now we can never go back there," said Zinaida, a 58-year-old local. "They are fascists and they have your support. We read that you have Scotland wanting to secede there. Why don't you send your tanks there and destroy them instead of sending them here? We will be part of Russia now and will never go back to those fascists."

[Christo]

Because the Scots don't have insurgents fighting and destabilizing the region with the support of a regional power. Duh.

Why can they separate without guns, tanks and annexation? Need to remind you who started all this? The insurgents.

Yep.

Keep spewing crap about 'fascist juntas' all you like, you won't be taken more seriously than RT news

[Lt_Anders]

Then please tell me Kafeine are these permissions granted by a legitimate government to be observed when that government is overthrown and a puppet installed by opposing geopolitical parties are sworn in on the back of a coup?

Small correction: The government(the MP's) voted Yanukovich out of power after he fled the country. The legit, still elected government used it's own power to impeach the current president after he fled to Russia.

Then, 5 months later(?) there's a complete election to select a new President(in which, had he probably wanted, Yanukovich could have tried, but he wasn't going to win, and he was under arrest anyways...)

Why? In my view, Putin is not that stupid, to invade another nation based on the aspirations of a minority is inexcusable and would grant NATO it's casus belli. (Even though NATO are guilty of this time and time again.) However he is interested in maintaining a buffer between NATO and Russia in the region of Ukraine due to the geopolitical topography, it's literally a gateway to Russia.

Israel is allowed to get away with genocide and occupation when it states that it must secure geopolitically vulnerable areas around Israel, (Golan heights for example), where is international law here? Why would international law be applied toward pro-Western nations when the international laws are just tools of those Western nations.

Also violence and warfare is not the answer either, but that's all we get. I prefer to spew my "bullshit" as long as it covers your bullshit.

Isreal doesn't "get away with" genocide. Many countries condemn them, even the US was like: WTF? Difference is: Isreal has a strong army, and the Muslim nations around it have tried, multiple times, to stomp it. Course, all of the participants need to just be nuked cause they are all at fault.

Dude, you sound like somebody who's bassckwards.

Give me 5 sources(5 is the minimum for a paper, or work, to be considered legitimate, by the science community) of what you spout. Those sources must be either credible(by the same standards as defined earlier) or  some form of legitimate repeatable "test" that someone with sufficient knowledge is capable of reproducing.

[Anuran]

Then why didn't they march all the way to Kiev? 

Anyway annexation is not the answer, stop spewing bullshit.

According to the NATO, Putin has invaded the Ukraine like at least 3 times. But he isn't in Kiev yet?

Why? In my view, Putin is not that stupid, to invade another nation based on the aspirations of a minority is inexcusable and would grant NATO it's casus belli. (Even though NATO are guilty of this time and time again.) However he is interested in maintaining a buffer between NATO and Russia in the region of Ukraine due to the geopolitical topography, it's literally a gateway to Russia.

Israel is allowed to get away with genocide and occupation when it states that it must secure geopolitically vulnerable areas around Israel, (Golan heights for example), where is international law here? Why would international law be applied toward pro-Western nations when the international laws are just tools of those Western nations.

Also violence and warfare is not the answer either, but that's all we get. I prefer to spew my "bullshit" as long as it covers your bullshit.

Putin is not stupid at all. He sussed things out and frustrated Obama's plan through the referendum/annexation (whatever) of Crimea. The NATO is an aggressive alliance nowadays, and in my opinion it should have been dissolved when the Warsaw Pact dissolved...

The point with Israel and Gaza is a good one. In a YouTube video Ken Jebsen (don't know if you know him) has talked about armament supply to the Kurds in Iraq. Christian parties and Christians agreed to it and he questioned their logic. "In the bible, I can only find 'Thou shalt not kill.', but I can't find an exception like 'Thou shalt not kill, unless there will be a conflict in 2000 years in the Middle East' or something like this. How cowardly can one be to not confess to it?" Then he asked himself to make his viewers think about it: "By the way, why don't we send weapons to the occupied people in Gaza so they can defend themselves? We can only send to the occupants but not to the occupied. Strange, isn't it? Aren't they also exposed to terror like the Kurds are?"
"When in the past 500.000 Iraqi children starved to death due to our boycott of Iraq, because we didn't send any food to there, we could have said 'these people need our solidarity for humanitarian reasons' but the conference of bishops never said a word about it." *video ends*

By the way, a US-diplomat said "it was worth it" concerning the 500.000 children.

Let me end this post with another quote from Ken Jebsen: "The chaos is the objective."

[Dark_Blade]

(click to show/hide)

Послушай, Долбоёб-диссидент наследственный с трудночитаемым ником, не ужели ты не внял до сих пор, что Путин  в России интересует только таких недоумков как ты? Нам похуй - Путин, Ельцин или Медведев. Нам допизды – коммунизм, социализм, капитализм. Мы живём сами. Ты, уёбок, заебал хамить и срать на каждой странице не только этой темы. Тебе твой папа-дисседент-русоненавистник не рассказывал сказку как он боролся с КГБ, но только благодаря чудовищному уму и смелости он смог избежать казни и ГУЛАГа для своей семьи? Ты - ЧМО, как и дейв-офицер-укропатриот. Дейв, я уверен, уже подготовил рассказ о его участии в жестоких боях на востоке Украины, после которых ФСБ организовало поиски его семьи, но он, как и Янукович, вырвался из лап ГРУ и скрылся в Ирландии. Весь ваш «патриотизм» закачивается во взгляде в кошелёк, а смелость таких как ты и дейв – только на страницах форумов. Вы позор любой нации, вы мерзость любого народа. Из-за таких «идейных» пидарасов, крестьяне, рабочие, инженеры, студенты (типа Сера), на Украине сейчас и убивают друг друга. Именно истерика таких выблядков, как вы, «любящих народ Украины», не даёт восстановить мир. Утырки-людоеды-блядь.

too expresisve  but sadly pretty close to the truth.

[Murmillus_Prime]

After the link to the previous article I posted showing East Ukrainians cheering on, I'd like to post a link to the kind of crowds Mr Chocolate Chip pulls.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b1_1410212622

I quote.

"reported that workers from factory's was forced in to buses and to meeting with Poroshenko ,it was mandatory if you want to keep your job.
 everyone has to sign list to report as being present ,wearing work helmet and work robe was
 mandatory too .so it looks like he talk to workers who just stopped to listen to "their leader"
 They started this hours before Parashenko showed up."

[Murmillus_Prime]

Small correction: The government(the MP's) voted Yanukovich out of power after he fled the country. The legit, still elected government used it's own power to impeach the current president after he fled to Russia.

Then, 5 months later(?) there's a complete election to select a new President(in which, had he probably wanted, Yanukovich could have tried, but he wasn't going to win, and he was under arrest anyways...)

Isreal doesn't "get away with" genocide. Many countries condemn them, even the US was like: WTF? Difference is: Isreal has a strong army, and the Muslim nations around it have tried, multiple times, to stomp it. Course, all of the participants need to just be nuked cause they are all at fault.

Dude, you sound like somebody who's bassckwards.

Give me 5 sources(5 is the minimum for a paper, or work, to be considered legitimate, by the science community) of what you spout. Those sources must be either credible(by the same standards as defined earlier) or  some form of legitimate repeatable "test" that someone with sufficient knowledge is capable of reproducing.

He fled the country after receiving death threats from the same people behind the shootings of the Policemen in the Maidan, people associated with Right Sector.

America condemns them? Then gives them billions in aid, the latest U.S weaponry, allows Israel to get away with developing an undeclared nuclear arsenal, exempts Israel from international law. Condemnation in the face of such an overwhelming support is like holding a candle up to a sun, what candle?

Also to your latter point, you're challenging me to gather information on my view of the situation judged by a scientific community, and you want me to find information you deem credible, when it's likely anything I post, regardless of its source or its message would be disregarded by you anyway? I won't waste my time. Unless that is you are more specific on the subject of your request, then I may reconsider.

[Lt_Anders]

Also to your latter point, you're challenging me to gather information on my view of the situation judged by a scientific community, and you want me to find information you deem credible, when it's likely anything I post, regardless of its source or its message would be disregarded by you anyway? I won't waste my time. Unless that is you are more specific on the subject of your request, then I may reconsider.

Post your sources, and if they follow the recommendations I posted, we can then start whittling away the wheat from the chaff. The mere fact that you totally ignore my comment to bring on anything with 5 other sources that it calls out, leads me to believe you have nothing that has an equitable fact check system.

At least post something with proper citations, hell, wikipedia has a better article(s) than most the stuff I see here, and a good portion of that is cited(albeit from "flimsy" single type sources)

(First step in any logical argument is presenting your facts, findings, and sources. If you "can't be bothered" to do even that, then all you are doing is arguing opinions, and there is no correct opinion.)

[DaveUKR]

I only a page or two ago posted a video of a captured Ukrainian soldier blurting it all out on camera. Let me dig up some more "proof", then.

Okay, even according to your "proof":

1. The guy is who?
2. This guy speaks Russian so he's obviously not a mercenary. Also he doesn't look like an Azov material, I mean really - a guy who speaks Russian and can't spell accents correctly in the name of his own country doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi"
3. Azov is not Army. It's a volunteer battalion of National Guard which is a part of Police.
4. Where are mercenaries themselves?

I mean if you get this as proof, why don't you get official acknowledged Russian military soldiers/officers as proof speaking about Russia's intentions (I mean those latest videos of captured Russian airborne). Nobody should trust such videos because even if the person is real - he'll say a lot of things he wouldn't say being free including words that people who are interviewing him want to hear.

[serr]

Also he doesn't look like an Azov material, I mean really - a guy who speaks Russian and can't spell accents correctly in the name of his own country doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi"

Actually many/most Azov fighters are russian-speaking. There are plenty guys from my city there, which is 95% russian speaking. Also, the only citizen of Russia who died fighting on Ukraine's side was in Azov. Although that indeed doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi".

[Vovka]

Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно 

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Also on a parting point, I find it laughable that my challenge to molly to back his statements up is rebuked not by molly, but yourself as a "technicality", when that technicality was the crux of molly's point, one unproven which completely discredits the point molly made.

Because it is fucking irrelevant if military bases have status of sovereign states or not: Russian military took over the Supreme Court and occupied polling stations. What is it you don't understand?

[Kuujis]

Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно 

You are still funny. How is it, that an almost BROKE nation is able to afford mercenaries is WAY beyond me... And it looks perfectly natural to our russian audience (oh, with some liars like Murmi as an addition). How is that?

Also - your "summary" missed the part, where rebels were mostly pressed hard to hold two major towns, until russian army invaded "for vacations" (btw - do ALL russian soldiers get to drive tanks from their units arsenal back to their villages? You know - for plowing the fields n shit?) and basically stabbed Ukraine in the back AGAIN, please don't forget that the next time you do a "summary" 

[DaveUKR]

Итого подытожив.
 Иностранные "наемники" в армии украины, которая не армия а милиция на самом деле волонтеры. В свою очередь Россия (которая за пару недель уже потеряла 2 тысячи десантников, больше чем и украина и сепаратисты вместе за все время войны) активно участвует в войне против милиции, которая состоит из волонтеров и срочников ВС украины во время антитеррористической операции на востоке украины против сепаратистов, которых европа отказалась признать террористами.  Вроде все понятно 

Итого подытожив.
Вовка не может читать английский текст, а если может, то не понимает его. Если не ошибаюсь, то в русском языке "волонтёр" и "доброволец" - это не совсем одно и то же по смыслу, про волонтерские подразделения я не слышал, имелся ввиду добровольческий батальон, коим Азов и является. И почитай, что такое Национальная Гвардия - это аналог внутренних войск в РФ, которые ни в Украине ни в России не являются частью вооруженных сил. Про срочников - это ты уже сам додумал. А про террористов и 2 тысячи десантников - разве я когда-то упоминал это вообще? Или я называю их террористами что ли? Я уже очень давно писал о том, что в украинских СМИ лоббируется пропаганда про огромные потери противника, размер которых невозможен даже в теории.

Actually many/most Azov fighters are russian-speaking. There are plenty guys from my city there, which is 95% russian speaking. Also, the only citizen of Russia who died fighting on Ukraine's side was in Azov. Although that indeed doesn't look like "far-right Ukrainian nаzi".

Well, a lot of Ukrainians are, including me and you. Also a lot of Ukrainians use the wrong accent in that word. It was not serious ofc. I was just mocking Tovi's image of Azov.