Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Vovka]

looked at some interrogations of prisoners. For me, the situation is not clear. Like dat "we saw a tank with Ukrainian flag, was very surprisedand, started to look for our column but it was not near " XD
wondering how it will end 

[Kuujis]

looked at some interrogations of prisoners. For me, the situation is not clear. Like dat "we saw a tank with Ukrainian flag, was very surprisedand, started to look for our column but it was not near " XD
wondering how it will end 

Isn't that a bit similar to what most Ukrainians (I expect) are thinking now? Like "We thought russia was our friend and then turn around to find a knife in our back during our hardest hour?" 

[Butan]

Found a little side information while reading at article on dissolving parliament of Ukraine:

Two days after Ukrainian parliament changed its regulations regarding the required size of parliamentary groups, the Communist Party of Ukraine faction was dissolved on 24 July 2014.[2]

The General Prosecutor of Ukraine and the Security Service of Ukraine have both filed criminal charges against the Communist Party of Ukraine. The charges against the party include supporting the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation and providing support to separatists in Eastern Ukraine, both acts of treason against the Ukrainian state. The trial is set for August 2014, and if found guilty the Ukrainian Communist party is widely expected to become illegal.[3]

Noone ever talked about that?
It gives more credence to the accusation of a far-right political domination.
Only countries where far-right is prevalent do you see far-left being outlawed or banned.
In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some 

Most of them would be. There's no way the separatists just "capture 500 armed vehicles." A mechanized infantry battalion would have, what, 50ish vehicles tops.

There is major battles ongoing, I wouldnt be surprised there is more than one battalion involved, so 50 vehicles seems the lowest of the low. More like a few hundreds, counting APC.

[Murmillus_Prime]

I get what you are saying Murmi, but I'm telling you Russia is way way worse than NATO.

It's simply not a comparison. You are Finnish if I recall, right? Well then it's not far away.. To feel better about themselves they blame the west for their miserable society, while in fact the SU rotted from within, before massive corruption set it. Anyone from that era can testify the system was absurd and didn't work very well. (Still, yes many had a better life than now or in the 90's). Putin is playing those strings in big russian hearts like a pro virtuoso.

I've been raised on propaganda from both sides, my father was editor of the soviet commie newspaper..    but I didn't want to pick a side until I saw myself, and the bitter truth is that it simply sucks. It's a hard society where people don't give jack shit about each other. People are wearing at least 3 faces. Power=Money on an everyday in-your-face basis. I've never seen such huge shameless displays of wealth next to heart-breaking powerty. The country is WOUNDED for fuck sake. Their pride, their justice, their economy, their people. In this confusion Putin comes in and tells people "the story" straight. What they want to hear. Becomes what they want to see. Restores the pride they so dearly miss, letting all russians smell the only thing more powerful than the ruble; Power.

The commenters from the Baltics in here have a knee-jerk anti-russianness over them, and I don't blame them, although I do think they are a bit blinded and naive regarding the west. For them, NATO is an insurance. Without it, RF would conquer and bully them just like they did and do with Ukraine. That's why Ukraine has a hard on for NATO. It's not NATO that has a hard on for them.

It's nice to sit online and read articles and make an opinion. I do it too, but I do it on the basis of my learned lessons and conversations with my russian friends and actually visiting there invited by a state institution.

So please Murmi. Don't compare Russian and the west as equals like in some giant game of Risk. There is a difference, and it's all about that our system is simply vastly better than theirs. Think Financial crisis was bad? Go east and take a look. Financial crisis is peanuts, and nothing they can't print their way out of lol. Because there might be fundamentally wrong things about western economy, but other economies are fundamentally much much worse.

No, I'm British Thomek.

You have made fair points and have some insight that I lack, in regards to first hand experiences. However I believe your latter point that I've bolded at the bottom is complacent and somewhat naïve. I've never compared the West/Russia as equals, I've only called out the NATO states on their own blatant almost nonstop aggression this century, following on from the previous century, and pointed out the fact that these actions and open acts of power projection will justify an international resistance to NATO, its agenda and the states within it which would then potentially lead to another axis vs allies scenario setting the stage for another global conflict.

I made a point in response to kafein in another post that one size does not fit all, the Western model simply doesn't work in pretty much most of the non Western world, and the point stands when comparing the living standards of Russians, Ukrainians and West Europeans. There are many reasons why many Russians/Ukrainians are generally individually worse off than Westerners however this argument should not be used to excuse geopolitical interference that leads to conflict, destruction and bloodshed, no matter the actors or their reasons. Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.

[Xant]

There is major battles ongoing, I wouldnt be surprised there is more than one battalion involved, so 50 vehicles seems the lowest of the low. More like a few hundreds, counting APC.

That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.

[Vovka]

That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.

just as an example. Side A was surrounded by  B. Party A wants to live, and offer to side B all their weapons in exchange for passage to the territory of "neutral state of russia XD" (an allusion to the surrendered 500 + military, do you think how much they have left behind)

Isn't that a bit similar to what most Ukrainians (I expect) are thinking now? Like "We thought russia was our friend and then turn around to find a knife in our back during our hardest hour?" 

for the Ukrainians it was no surprise, Muscovites is their enemies for the past 20 million years, even in those days, after not successful mammoths hunt, great ukry said "кляті москалі"

[Leshma]

In this case it is also probably because communism = soviet = russia for some 

What most westerners fail to realize is that Putin's Russia isn't Red Army Strikes Back. After the fall of communism, in every single country affected by it, there has been nationalism on the rise which was never part of communism (nationalism was heavily suppressed by communist regimes). Putin isn't communist, he is tsarist Russia admirer, just like most Russians in this thread. They belong to the White Army.

Also Soviet related: regimes never just implode on their own. There is always an outside force that acts on a system. In case of commie regimes that outside force were descendants of people who fled the country when Bolsheviks/Communists won.

*post continued in meanwhile in iraq*

[Butan]

That isn't the point. A mechanized infantry battalion has 50 vehicles TOPS... but how are you going to capture those intact? You're not. If you win a battle, maybe you'll get a few. But that means completely wiping out that battalion+supporting elements. And that's just a few still-working vehicles you'll have to show for it.

As Vovka said, mostly surrenders.
There is many parameters which supports this: report of very low organisation of Ukrainian army, especially national guards and other fresly conscripted units, parts of them surrounded in some regions (especially the caudron one), and which dont all hate their russian-friendly Ukrainian countrymen with a passion and/or arent the fanatical nationalist who want to die fighting 


Even then, the 500 number is probably exagerated.
When a nation at war give reports they always do the following: say casualty is high on enemy, low on friend/own.

[Anuran]

Hello, the

forum cretin of the year

is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Isn’t that obvious enough?

I am still missing proof for the attacked platoon of refugees, which allegedly got attacked by the separatists.
I am still missing proof for the Russian military vehicles which allegedly entered Ukrainian territory at night and allegedly through a fence.
I am still missing proof for the Russian artillery stationed in the Ukraine.
I am still missing proof for the new military vehicles which allegedly entered the Ukraine again.
I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:

(click to show/hide)

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Btw: can you remember the massive sanctions on the US, when they shot down an iranian plane in 1988? The president said something like "in a war it's possible for such a thing to happen"... I can't either.

The USA is dividing the world massively and the media are supporting it indirectly...


But more and more people are going on the streets to campaign for a new medial era of free press, they mainly campaign for PEACE.  They are getting information from alternative media, which are either ignored or called “right-wing extremists”. At least in Germany. They mainly concentrate on “Monday Demonstrations” as they are called here.
Demonstrations mainly for peace. Do you know how these demonstrations are portrayed in the mass media? “Right-wing extremists”, “conspiracy theorists”, “liars” and so on. Saying your opinion on these demonstrations can bring you in real problems. Some speakers received death threats because they don’t stop criticizing the system and the criminal intrigues of the world politics. I am wondering if the enemies of these peace demonstrations want war instead…
So more and more people wake up and request information they don't get in the mainstream media. Mass media manipulation is still there, but not for much longer...

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Also I believe we should not be so complacent in the apparent superior living standards in the West, nations all over Europe and the U.K are year on year exposing their populace to ever further degrading living standards due to the rise of living costs and the freezing of private and public sector pay.. Things are not getting better in the West financially for the working class, of which I am a part of, they are getting worse, and who knows how bad things will become before they start to improve again, if they ever do that is. This is why I believe its complacent to state that our living standards are better than those in the East when in a decade or more this may no longer be true.

You are completely right. At some point there will be a financial crash which will be the worst ever. Maybe much blood will be shed. The more people are uninformed, the more surprising will the crash be, the more possible will blood shedding be and therefore more blood will be shed… After that, a complete restart will very likely happen. And if we are unlucky, the same protagonists like now will again get power.

[Butan]

I feel so moderate now that there is Anuran and Murmillus Prime debating    my right place!

Anyway guys, no need to use expletives to prove your points.
We can all disagree in peace and try to convince each other.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Hello, the  is here again.

I think Russia really wants war, I mean look at that:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Isn’t that obvious enough?

I am still missing proof for the attacked platoon of refugees, which allegedly got attacked by the separatists.
I am still missing proof for the Russian military vehicles which allegedly entered Ukrainian territory at night and allegedly through a fence.
I am still missing proof for the Russian artillery stationed in the Ukraine.
I am still missing proof for the new military vehicles which allegedly entered the Ukraine again.
I am still missing proof that Russia shot down MH17. If you still remember what MH17 is… Now Putin requests clarification since the interest in clarification of what really happened is shrinking. Mass media aren’t saying anything about it anymore. We should not forget the tragedy concerning MH17, and we should not forget the victims of the plane who were abused just to produce more agitation against Russia.
Do mass media think we are stupid??? If they are all so sure that it was Russia, then where is the proof?

The NATO (USA) is far more aggressive in the world than Putin… The US-government needs oil, gas and money to be able to pay their debts (highest in the world). So they stir up hatred between groups in a country they will profit from, and when the tensions are high enough, the US will “bring democracy” to the country. Well, in Saudi-Arabia there is also no democracy, but that is tradition then… The biggest plan is now to increase tensions between Europe and Russia, so Europe won’t buy Russian gas but American gas, with the help of fracking, TTIP, TISA and so on…

I repeat what I wrote before: in 1990 the NATO promised Russia to not further expand to the east:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Btw: can you remember the massive sanctions on the US, when they shot down an iranian plane in 1988? The president said something like "in a war it's possible for such a thing to happen"... I can't either.

The USA is dividing the world massively and the media are supporting it indirectly...


But more and more people are going on the streets to campaign for a new medial era of free press, they mainly campaign for PEACE.  They are getting information from alternative media, which are either ignored or called “right-wing extremists”. At least in Germany. They mainly concentrate on “Monday Demonstrations” as they are called here.
Demonstrations mainly for peace. Do you know how these demonstrations are portrayed in the mass media? “Right-wing extremists”, “conspiracy theorists”, “liars” and so on. Saying your opinion on these demonstrations can bring you in real problems. Some speakers received death threats because they don’t stop criticizing the system and the criminal intrigues of the world politics. I am wondering if the enemies of these peace demonstrations want war instead…
So more and more people wake up and request information they don't get in the mainstream media. Mass media manipulation is still there, but not for much longer...

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

You are completely right. At some point there will be a financial crash which will be the worst ever. Maybe much blood will be shed. The more people are uninformed, the more surprising will the crash be, the more possible will blood shedding be and therefore more blood will be shed… After that, a complete restart will very likely happen. And if we are unlucky, the same protagonists like now will again get power.

NATO haven't been bombing sovereign states, or surrounding geopolitical rivals with military bases, they're whiter than white, well that's what I determine from the attitudes of Molly, Kaffein and now Tibe... Since we only speak bollocks right so that must mean what we say isn't true and is all made up..

[Xant]

I feel so moderate now that there is Anuran and Murmillus Prime debating    my right place!

Anyway guys, no need to use expletives to prove your points.
We can all disagree in peace and try to convince each other.

FUCK YOU

[Butan]

FUCK YOU

UR MOM

[Turkhammer]

Putin says Russian soldiers captured in Ukraine, crossed the border, mainly by accident.

[Thomek]

I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure NATO promised USSR not to expand eastwards. (not Russia) And btw, it's just as much the eastern countries begging to join EU and NATO, not the other way around. There was plenty of resistance in EU towards eastern countries joining for example.

@Anuran. Omg how thick are you. You think a bunch of rebels are that much better organized than the main Ukrainian army without massive support from Russia? Where they get fuel, ammo, tanks and apc's from? How do they replace them? Are they superheroes filled with massive brains and bravure? You forgot their leader was a Russian ex-KGB officer? What about Russian passports showing up? What about Russians did exactly the same in Crimea? Denied involvment of troops, then Putin himself admitted it..

Proof, what proof do you want? there's tons of indices everywhere. You want to see a tank with Russian flag on it? Licence plates? Oh, right. The APC's and tanks doesn't have licence plates. Please use your brain, although I know it must hurt to face the facts.

here from today, russian paratroopers captured: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28934213

@Murmi
I do understand Putin here. He doesn't want the well integrated economy of Ukraine to join EU. Which will are not as easily manipulated to his will, or as easy to make deals with. He wants to teach Ukraine a lesson, and at the same time steal the best pieces of the country, as well as secure a good landbridge to Crimea. He knows the rest of Ukraine is lost, never to return.

About the global situation, perhaps you are right. Although I think it has as much to do with ignorant and retarded american presidents and their military industrial complex. They need a war now and then..   I think trying to put some kind of global strategy and purpose to many of their actions quickly becomes absurd conspiratorical bullshit. Afghanistan and Iraq, you don't have to go much further than Bush and his friends to explain it. US didn't gain jack shit from that mess. Why were they so keen on bombing Serbia? Who the hell knows? Because they had unused bombs laying around, their army could need some training, because Milosevic was a bad guy, because Clinton needed a distraction from his sex scandal? What on earth did they get from that one? A new muslim crime state in Europe?

Throughout history, wars have been fought not because of some grand strategy or plan for the people of a country, but because leaders needed distractions and support, or saw a possibility.Leaders simply reacted to the challenges right in front of them.  They don't give shit about the president or leader that comes AFTER them.

Anyway, this is what I hate about people who tries to understand the world by making all the pieces fit neatly, whether right wing, left wing, conspiracy theorist. Leaders, aka human beings, are only able to plan that far ahead, and drawing big lines bigger than that is rather futile. The reason NATO countries has been involved in so many conflicts after fall of SU is simple that they had the possibilities, because there was no counterweight.