Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Butan]

I'm so sorry to bring this to you, but a single case neither prooves, neither disprooves a general rule. Ask Butan, he is an expert on this kind of BS.

Are you complimenting me for having the habit of not extending a local event to an absolute general truth?   

Because yes, the latest "russian column spotted" might be a fraud, but it doesnt mean there has been no column of russian forces which have entered the territory of Ukraine in the past, Murmillus.
Still, Kuujis, it proves one thing: lies comes from both sides, if you want to know the truth, you have to take no side and analyze thoroughly. Because no government is to be trusted if you seek the truth.


"The rulers of the state are the only persons who ought to have the privilege of lying."

[Thomek]

This is true, both ukrainian and RF are lying "habitually" about this. They are two nations at war, from societies where governmental lying has long traditions. (Yes, far far more and worse than western government lying.)

Credible western media seldom straight up lies. They can avoid subjects, be biased, be ignorant or naive, behave like sheep etc.. But straight up lying is rare.

[Kuujis]

Are you complimenting me for having the habit of not extending a local event to an absolute general truth?   

YES!  Although I agree to disagree on other interpretations 

Because yes, the latest "russian column spotted" might be a fraud, but it doesnt mean there has been no column of russian forces which have entered the territory of Ukraine in the past, Murmillus.
Still, Kuujis, it proves one thing: lies comes from both sides, if you want to know the truth, you have to take no side and analyze thoroughly. Because no government is to be trusted if you seek the truth.


"The rulers of the state are the only persons who ought to have the privilege of lying."

Well... don't tell me you are too lazy to read

<...>
Frankly - both Ukraine and russia are sides in this conflict, thus - natural propaganda sources. <...>

What is significant is that the article states that Ukrainian politicians admit they have no evidence of their claims. So instead of everyone believing everything the Ukrainian government says, NATO igniting a war over such lies and dragging the world into world war 3, they've decided to own up.

Let me rephrase that:
What is significant is that the article other articles states that Ukrainian politicians admit russia cannot admit its been lying again and again (well, Crimea is an exception I guess), even though they have no there are evidence of their claims being false. So instead of everyone believing everything the Ukrainian government putlers media says, NATO russia igniting a war over such lies and dragging the world into world war 3, they've decided to own up they will still never take responsibility and act as grownups.

Russians and other mercenaries are fighting for the rebels in Ukraine, as mercenaries are fighting for the Ukrainian government, as I said on a previous post both sides are playing dirty. However if Ukraine proves that Russia has "Invaded" Ukraine then NATO has threatened military action, and that's the kind of shit we can all do without no?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. Almost broke Ukraine paying mercenaries? Do you find it as likely as a thief former president, who ran away to russia, being forced to cough up his cash by the very annoyed putler and being forced to supply and fund separatists... Anyway - do you have any reliable sources to claim this? Playing dirty propaganda is one thing, which IS obvious, claiming that there are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Tights fighting on Ukraine side is on another level of "funny" altogether.
2. NATO explicitly excluded option of military intervention, as Ukraine is not NATO member state. Technical and arms support is another thing, which IS on the table and is IMO justified as much as supplying russia with mistral warships. Or do you object to that too? I do not see, why someone should NOT support Ukraine just because "it may end up with WW3". Vice versa - this "let him have it, maybe it will be enough" mentality is what led to WW2, check your history lessons.
3. "Eating shit is almost the same as eating chocolate (see 2g1cup videos  ), and we can all agree that chocolate is tasty". That is how you constructed your last sentence. Looks funny though. Cheap, but funny.

[Butan]

This is true, both ukrainian and RF are lying "habitually" about this. They are two nations at war, from societies where governmental lying has long traditions. (Yes, far far more and worse than western government lying.)

Credible western media seldom straight up lies. They can avoid subjects, be biased, be ignorant or naive, behave like sheep etc.. But straight up lying is rare.

They may have a culture-shaped doctrine of war of information which makes them use totally different tactics, but my opinion is that we are more gullible when the information comes from inside our sphere (regional, national, cultural, political), than outside, making outside information look like a cruder version than inside information, even when both are on the same level of manipulation, even when we are trying to be objective, but failing short due to the mental reflexes I mentionned.

Ask an European/Russian what they think when they read comparably false Russia/European paper. They may both have the same opinion than you. Who's right?

Well... don't tell me you are too lazy to read

I read, but waited for confirmation before being happy

[Thomek]

Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236

[Butan]

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html

Funny that first time we use soviet era as a positive argument, its to sprout shit on current RF  Still interesting article...

I would like to know if those journalists, who were working on "higher standards" back then, did reports on (for example) Tchernobyl and the soviet war in Afghanistan and other proxy russian wars, and to check if they never ever indulged in "bold faced lies".
I think they are going a bit easy on themselves, nostalgia and selective memory helping 


I agree on the rest of your post...
Still dont believe in a "monopoly" of badly thought lies (pro-Russian people burning themselves in a building... Separatists bombing themselves in conflict zones... and all seriously discussed right in this thread).
Its hard to quantify the stupidity of national medias (private and state controlled), and to compare between states. How can we resolve the question without falling into traps?


Even if russian medias were more prone to autistic level of propaganda, it only make them less dangerous than the more subtle journalists. Fear not the bad liars, but the good ones.
Since it is a harmless conundrum, I concede you the argument.

This saves them from looking inside themselves.

We humans often start introspections after everything is over.
As in most "great secret of history", we will have to wait a few years, or decades, to have a part of the truth, or most of it, delivered to us.
Until then, we have best keep our wits about ourselves!

[Murmillus_Prime]

Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236

The impression I get is that is not that Russia feels humiliated by the West, it feels betrayed. Russia, the Russian government, Putin have politically played their cards very well and Putin has seemed to have the political edge over Western politicians in geopolitical situations that affect both the West and Russia.

Look at Russia brokering the deal with the Syrian government dismantling its chemical weapons production, Russia's ability to retain its warm water port despite its puppet being violently overthrown in Ukraine. Russia's strengthening of the BRICS and its part in encouraging other major developing, emerging trading nations in moving away from the dollar. Putin has played his cards well and I doubt he nor his public support in Russia feel humiliated, just betrayed by the West.

[Xant]

Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.

[Kafein]

Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.

Putin is playing the North Korean squaredance. He got a little angry, grabbed some geopolitical bully points, secured the public opinion at home. At some point he will start de-escalating tensions, before he gets anyone really mad.

[Xant]

Putin is playing the North Korean squaredance. He got a little angry, grabbed some geopolitical bully points, secured the public opinion at home. At some point he will start de-escalating tensions, before he gets anyone really mad.

He's already fucked up a lot for Russia, even if he starts de-escalating right now.

[Kuujis]

The impression I get is that is not that Russia feels humiliated by the West, it feels betrayed. Russia, the Russian government, Putin have politically played their cards very well and Putin has seemed to have the political edge over Western politicians in geopolitical situations that affect both the West and Russia.

Look at Russia brokering the deal with the Syrian government dismantling its chemical weapons production, Russia's ability to retain its warm water port despite its puppet being violently overthrown in Ukraine. Russia's strengthening of the BRICS and its part in encouraging other major developing, emerging trading nations in moving away from the dollar. Putin has played his cards well and I doubt he nor his public support in Russia feel humiliated, just betrayed by the West.

Humiliated how? And why by the West? You DO realize, that its something that YOUR government owned media created in your mind? One of your neighbors wants to "go west" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezoGW_z9w0 and suddenly you feel humiliated? If you lived in a flat apartment, which was crumbling, and your neighbor decided to leave your "commune" - do you suddenly feel humiliated?

Putin played, I dare say - LOST big time, and now you feel fucked, humiliated. Well guess what - in any NORMAL country the top gambler would not have 87% support, yet "in putlers russia putler maintains your support for him". Wake the fuck up and stop blaming everyone else around you, your history or what ever else you want to blame. What did YOU do to stop this bloodshed?

Its a sign of megalomania and/or paranoia to position russia against the west. Simple as that. Its a relic of "irrelevant" russian history circa CCCP times and russian imperialism before that. And russia needs to get over it and deal with it.

[Vovka]

Butan,

Check out this article by former journalist in the soviet regime:  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-media-lives-in-an-alternate-reality/504339.html

In Russia, intelligent people know how their media works. I assume they are able to extract some truth through the propaganda, and the same here in the west. Intelligent people know our media and how it works, and are able to find and extract useful info from it.

Now.. What I think is the basis for this whole conflict lies on an emotional level among the people in Ukraine and RF:

Russia has felt humiliated by the west, and Ukrainians by Russia. Both people, and especially their politicians and media, are using others as scapegoats for their problems. This saves them from looking inside themselves and realizing that their corrupt mafia-societies are not self-sustaining. (Well in RF it's not much media that are allowed to be critical anyway, that leaves blaming others the only option)

I mean.. here one TV channel resorted to special effects compositing like Iran does:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


 http://mediarnbo.org/?p=4236

and? )

(click to show/hide)

Ukrainian channel provides all the same footage of the proton fall, for the shelling donetck by separatists from heavy guns

[Vovka]

[Murmillus_Prime]

Humiliated how? And why by the West? You DO realize, that its something that YOUR government owned media created in your mind? One of your neighbors wants to "go west" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SezoGW_z9w0 and suddenly you feel humiliated? If you lived in a flat apartment, which was crumbling, and your neighbor decided to leave your "commune" - do you suddenly feel humiliated?

Putin played, I dare say - LOST big time, and now you feel fucked, humiliated. Well guess what - in any NORMAL country the top gambler would not have 87% support, yet "in putlers russia putler maintains your support for him". Wake the fuck up and stop blaming everyone else around you, your history or what ever else you want to blame. What did YOU do to stop this bloodshed?

Its a sign of megalomania and/or paranoia to position russia against the west. Simple as that. Its a relic of "irrelevant" russian history circa CCCP times and russian imperialism before that. And russia needs to get over it and deal with it.

Read what I wrote again, and by the way I'm British not Russian. Simpering idiots on this thread are pulling their own government and media line, look at kafein for example, bought right into the whole "Russia is now isolated" propaganda hook line and sinker.. But of course with the rise of the BRICS we know that the whole "Russia has isolated itself" propaganda is complete bullshit.

We even have European nations criticising the sanctions placed on Russia due to the harm Russia's retaliatory sanctions are having on their trade, so not only has Russia secured international ties from China, to South Africa, India and then South America, even EU states want to rapidly improve relations with Russia again just to save their own necks.

The E.U has failed to serve its purpose, and it is in decline and I don't think it will take much longer for the failed experiment to start to crumble and for nations within its sphere to start dropping out one by one for the sake of their own sovereignty, economy and people.

The EU, like the soviet union is failing and will fail. Too much power in the hands of too few incompetent people leads to major failings and ineptitude.

[Butan]

Only Retardus_Prime would think Putin's played his cards well when we're close to another cold war.

How is being close to another cold war a defeat for Russia?
Even if there is no de-escalation, as Kafein said.