Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

Were the chechens separatists before their violence spilled out of Chechnya?

I really don't know is there any sense to speak with Kuujis but I will try, I think you don't know nothing about Chechnya, maybe a little that you read in wiki. First of all I blame president Eltsin that he sent people on that war in Chechen. I think that he was a clown. Second Dudaev took by force state building and killed chairman of the Grozny City Council Vitaly Kutsenko in 1991, but war didn't begin. Not the same revolution but was in Kiev. Russia got out all military forces from Chechnya. Chechnya become independent and were so from 1991 to 1994.
In 1992 — 1993 in the territory of Chechnya over 600 premeditated murders were committed. During 1993 on the Grozny office of the North Caucasian railroad about 4 thousand vagons and containers for the sum of 11,5 billion rubles underwent armed attack of 559 trains with full or partial plunder. In 8 months 1994 120 armed attacks as a result of which 1156 vagons and 527 containers are plundered. Losses made more than 11 billion rubles. In 1992 — 1994 as a result of armed attacks 26 railroad workers were killed. Current situation compelled the government of Russia to make the decision on the termination of movement on the territory of Chechnya since October, 1994. Since 1992 it was stolen and 1790 people were illegally kept in Chechnya. In Chechnya from 1991 to 1999 it was killed more than 21 thousand Russians (apart from victims during military operations), it is taken more than 100 thousand apartments and the houses belonging to representatives of the non Chechen ethnoses, more than 46 thousand people were actually turned into slaves. They selected property and passports with the connivance of the republican and federal authorities. And a lot of things were happened. 1994-1996 Eltsin send russian forces in Chechnya. then in 1996 they made the peace. But then some bombs and so on. Population in Russia were in panic and Putin were under pressure to stop all that terrorists, so second chechen war began. And now Chechnya one of the richest region.
So were Chechens separatists, yes, because they wanted to separate. So were they terrorists? yes, they killed a lot of people and robbed many trains.

What DonNicko wanted to say - I have no clue. He is not able to answer simple questions, so its a bit moot point to try to understand or agree with him. What I really think is that he is becoming a bit disillusioned about the actions of his country in another neighboring ex-friendly slav country and this realization starts to sink in and he becomes "not so sure". Or maybe I hope, that this is happening... naive me 

Oh yes I don't able to answer simple question. Lol. When I say I don't know it means I don't know, when I say there is no proof, it means there is no proof. 

[Turkhammer]

A lot of) Especially on the East and Crimea

 

According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians 

So they were double agents or Russian tourists all along?  If they are Russian why are they living permanently in Ukraine?  What is their nationality, Ukrainian or Russian?  If they wish to be Russian why don't they move to Russia instead of moving Russia to themselves? 

Germany used the same logic when it moved into neighboring countries.  It said it was protecting ethnic Germans.  Germany was roundly and correctly denounced for doing that.
It what essential way do Russian actions and justifications differ from what Germany did in the 1930s?

[DonNicko]

So they were double agents or Russian tourists all along?  If they are Russian why are they living permanently in Ukraine?  What is their nationality, Ukrainian or Russian?  If they wish to be Russian why don't they move to Russia instead of moving Russia to themselves? 

Germany used the same logic when it moved into neighboring countries.  It said it was protecting ethnic Germans.  Germany was roundly and correctly denounced for doing that.
It what essential way do Russian actions and justifications differ from what Germany did in the 1930s?

OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?

[Kuujis]

I really don't know is there any sense to speak with Kuujis but I will try, I think you don't know nothing about Chechnya, maybe a little that you read in wiki. First of all I blame president Eltsin that he sent people on that war in Chechen. I think that he was a clown. Second Dudaev took by force state building and killed chairman of the Grozny City Council Vitaly Kutsenko in 1991, but war didn't begin. Not the same revolution but was in Kiev. Russia got out all military forces from Chechnya. Chechnya become independent and were so from 1991 to 1994.
In 1992 — 1993 in the territory of Chechnya over 600 premeditated murders were committed. During 1993 on the Grozny office of the North Caucasian railroad about 4 thousand vagons and containers for the sum of 11,5 billion rubles underwent armed attack of 559 trains with full or partial plunder. In 8 months 1994 120 armed attacks as a result of which 1156 vagons and 527 containers are plundered. Losses made more than 11 billion rubles. In 1992 — 1994 as a result of armed attacks 26 railroad workers were killed. Current situation compelled the government of Russia to make the decision on the termination of movement on the territory of Chechnya since October, 1994. Since 1992 it was stolen and 1790 people were illegally kept in Chechnya. In Chechnya from 1991 to 1999 it was killed more than 21 thousand Russians (apart from victims during military operations), it is taken more than 100 thousand apartments and the houses belonging to representatives of the non Chechen ethnoses, more than 46 thousand people were actually turned into slaves. They selected property and passports with the connivance of the republican and federal authorities. And a lot of things were happened. 1994-1996 Eltsin send russian forces in Chechnya. then in 1996 they made the peace. But then some bombs and so on. Population in Russia were in panic and Putin were under pressure to stop all that terrorists, so second chechen war began. And now Chechnya one of the richest region.
So were Chechens separatists, yes, because they wanted to separate. So were they terrorists? yes, they killed a lot of people and robbed many trains.
Oh yes I don't able to answer simple question. Lol. When I say I don't know it means I don't know, when I say there is no proof, it means there is no proof.

Good, we are getting somewhere. Sources?

Lets put it this way:
In 2014 bunch of armed thugs started causing general mayhem in eastern ukraine, killing several, kidnapping others, basically - installing their own "government" at a point of a gun and openly declaring their wish to join neighboring country, despite the fact, that they were minority in those regions (albeit - supported by russia, thus better organized and armed). After failed attempts to negotiate - open hostilities break out. Ukraine new president sends in troops en-masse and the civil war begins.

So you cite 11 billion roubles of losses (care to translate to dollars?) and 26 railroad people dead + 1790 people kidnaped (assuming that is what "stolen" means) + general unrest and infighting as a "casus belli" for Yaltcin to invade the independent Chechnya, fair enough. 21k russians killed till 1999, i.e. including during the first war - that is the outcome of russian meddling in Chechnya, from what I gather, not the cause + given russian war crimes list on the very wiki in the first chechen war - I would lay a significant part of the casualties on the very russian army you try to justify. Given that russians were participating in the internal conflict between opposing factions - I don't really see how it could have ended otherwise, but I digress - general mayhem in a neighboring country is... oups - something russia likes to cause greaat... so, given such a cause for starting the wipeout of terrorists - lets see Ukraine case.

What if Ukraine cited their property being stolen (somehow I believe its MORE than those vagons) and its citizens being terrorized into some new quazi-independent state + general mayhem + refusal to negotiate + evident interference by russia + a serious likelyhood of Crimean scenario with numerous green-men (who then turned out to be russian special forces) repeating. Do you find this an insufficient cause for dealing with terrorists-separatists the hard way? + comparatively, given the amount of civilians in conflict zone and numbers of casualties - these military actions are mild and well restrained, instead of russian "throw cannon fodder in and see what happens" way.

So... lets see - one is legitimate, another is not? Ofcourse it is better to avoid fighting, but its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion. Instead - they got called natzzzzeeeeessss and sent away "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us". +add the whole propaganda BS by putler media. I would say Ukraine had MORE than enough casus belli to defend itself, while russian possition in this case is mind-boggling given that THEY stirred this shit up and coupled with eighty-fucking-seven percent support for great-leader-putler.

At least you will skip some sessions of eating sprats along this path...

[DonNicko]

My opinion is that Chechen war is greatest fault in new russian history. I know that some russian soldiers did there with chechen women. And my opinion that president wouldn't send troops to Chechnya. As my opinion that Kiev made mistake to send troops to the East. They could make it politically. I don't know about second chechen war, because main aim was to destroy terrorists, maybe the same as Israel is doing now. I really cant understand, why you can't undestand my position. Maybe you are too offended by russians or me, sorry, I can't do anything, I just blame all warcrimes and murders.

[Christo]

Have you guys heard about the convoy?

[Molly]

OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?

That's nearly 100 years ago - get fucking over it. Either be Ukrainian or piss off if you don't like it. Pretty sure nobody would hold them back if they want to be Russian so badly.

[Kuujis]

My opinion is that Chechen war is greatest fault in new russian history. I know that some russian soldiers did there with chechen women. And my opinion that president wouldn't send troops to Chechnya. As my opinion that Kiev made mistake to send troops to the East. They could make it politically. I don't know about second chechen war, because main aim was to destroy terrorists, maybe the same as Israel is doing now. I really cant understand, why you can't undestand my position. Maybe you are too offended by russians or me, sorry, I can't do anything, I just blame all warcrimes and murders.

So first war was bad (I agree), second was okay-ish (IMO - it was an extension of the first and more of a cementing of putlers power to rule) and Ukrainians refusing to give up two more regions of their country to little-green-men is not ok? Not even "okay-is"? And don't tell me Ukraine leadership did not try diplomacy first, better tell me why it failed (at least in your oppinion) IMO it failed because the separatists-terrorists never intended to have any serious negotiations - due to influence by putler or their own overconfidence - I cannot tell though. Maybe a mix of these + something else even.

[Oberyn]

OMG, maybe you don't know but Ukraine was a part of USSR. That territories that separatists are controlling now were presented to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, Crimea were presented in 1954, but that was united country, and a lot of people on that territories are russians, but less then half. Where they should to move if that territories are their home?

I'm sorry, I thought the RF had absolutely nothing to do with the USSR, that it is a brand new governmental organization with no ties to that past? And now you're saying irredentist claims of former USSR apply to the RF? The only reason there are russians there at all is because of the policy of russification, deliberately flooding all the neighbouring countries with russian immigrants in order to erase the native culture and language. Pretty much exactly what China is doing in Xinjiang and Tibet.

Hmmm, I wonder why neighbouring countries are worried. Obviously just because they're chocolate chip cookie fascists that hate Russia and russians.

[Dark_Blade]

So... lets see - one is legitimate, another is not? Ofcourse it is better to avoid fighting, but its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion. Instead - they got called natzzzzeeeeessss and sent away "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us". +add the whole propaganda BS by putler media.

to be honest - cool story bro.
1. its not like Ukraine did not try to negotiate first and was not offering amnesty, autonomy and a further discussion.
Ukraine didnt. absolutely. Ukraine still not really agree with the desteny of Crimea but to be honest - really majority voted for being part of russia but who actually cares about people and their opinions when shitload of money counts?
2. "because we are russia and we will be joining it soon and they will support us"
if throw away some obvious things - there wasnt a single word about joining russia in future. yes, none of us needs a proof to understand - its going to be the same like with Crimea but still. they says about their own federation. maybe inside RF(MAYBE AHAHAHA. ofcourse).

[Christo]

really majority voted for being part of russia but who actually cares about people and their opinion

 

[DonNicko]

That's nearly 100 years ago - get fucking over it. Either be Ukrainian or piss off if you don't like it. Pretty sure nobody would hold them back if they want to be Russian so badly.

I'm sorry, I thought the RF had absolutely nothing to do with the USSR, that it is a brand new governmental organization with no ties to that past? And now you're saying irredentist claims of former USSR apply to the RF? The only reason there are russians there at all is because of the policy of russification, deliberately flooding all the neighbouring countries with russian immigrants in order to erase the native culture and language. Pretty much exactly what China is doing in Xinjiang and Tibet.

Hmmm, I wonder why neighbouring countries are worried. Obviously just because they're chocolate chip cookie fascists that hate Russia and russians.

Lol I explained why russian people live in the territory of Ukraine, because Turkhammer imho missed it, I don't care about joining that territories. Please read carefully next time

[DonNicko]

Wierd video where family died because of shelling.

[Dark_Blade]

i have several examples but i'll tell the funniest one.

in our crpg community there was a player known as SB_Tuskin_von_Gotland.
this dude is from Semphiropol(territorial center of Crimea).
he always was europhil. even at his strikeball hobby he always prefered western amunition.
when i left SB i was speaking with him quite rarelly. after some time he told me he was on the Maydan but he was there at December right in the time when things got boring so he got a disappointment and left that place.
after some time, when Crimea became a Russia somehow i met him on the strat battle. I wanted to troll him about his new country but i used to wonder about his answer on my trolling. he was... happy o_O and he voted "Yes" too. then I asked some other SB guys... well they got lol'd too how fast his love to russia has been grown.

[Christo]

404 - sense not found

.-.