Meanwhile in Ukraine

[DonNicko]

there are russians in the ukraine?

A lot of) Especially on the East and Crimea

[Butan]

there are russians in the ukraine?

According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians 

[Tibe]

Tibe again using words such as pretty sure and so on. In 2001 Ukranian army shot the commercial plane. All people died. Are they  dumb enough to shoot down a civilian airplane? Tradegy in Odessa maybe you remember it. Same people from right sector now in the army. Can they shoot russians?

Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.

[DonNicko]

Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.

I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me. I would give you videos where people talk about bombings, but they are on russian language. It is interesting how people start to believe that separatists bomb civilians so easily. Any brainwash?

[Kuujis]

I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me.

How come you are so sure, that Ukrainian army want a PR disaster on their hands and actually decided to do this... intentional civilian house bombing, YET - you are not sure about separatists playing this bloody PR game, since they have nothing to lose (i.e. they already lost IMO, barring putlers invasion)?

I can understand (yet never approve or justify) of shelling separatist possitions in civilian neighborhoods, but this is the warzone separatists choose. General rule of thumb for civilians - if you see a fighter (of ANY side), move away from him, whichever side he is on, lest you might become unfortunate bystander victim or worse - might be treated as an enemy combatant. This was true for all conflicts, this is true for Ukraines fight agains russian insurgency.

And I would stress again - IF this shelling was on the scale putlers media portrays it - we would be seeing civilian casualties in HUNDREDS and daily, like it was in chechnya, not in single digits like it (unfortunately) is happening currently.

[Tibe]

I can't say honestly, it is you are pretty sure, not  me. I would give you videos where people talk about bombings, but they are on russian language. It is interesting how people start to believe that separatists bomb civilians so easily. Any brainwash?

The problem here is that we dont know. And the civilians dont know and both sides dont really know. They dont know who bombed what and where. Im just saying it is very easy to blame the army for the deaths of civilians. And yes I am very sure that the separatists killed civilians too. Its kinda wierd to think that they didnt. I mean really Nicko. Think about it. The separatist shoot a lot of bullets and bombs aswell, not only Kievs forces. It is very hard to belive they had such good aim that they missed every civilian around. Now okay, it is harder to belive the rebels shot them in purpose, but by accident, it's very likely.

[Dark_Blade]

Tiberius both sides are using the same arguments but as ukrainian i can be sure in one thing - you cannot be sure in anything so far until you wont see it with your own eyes. you are from another country who dont really know not only russian TV but even ukrainian one.
i am sure - none of us are competent enough. you can be on someones side but as far as i can get personally you are kinda against russia than on ukrainian side. this point is not really constructive.
and one thing about TV none of you shouldnt forget
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


btw i would like to remind one thing what i said in this topic a while ago.
with your support to maydan you had to expect everything how can it be ended. the words about civilian war was in that times... i guess none of you feel even little sorry for being guilty of this war at some point(which still does exist).

[Xant]

I have no idea what you just said

[BIA_ivani4]

[Butan]

Well yea, the population of Donetsk is around millions and there are thousands of separatists. Its chaos, they are almost losing, they are desperate and angry. Tell me honestly that there isnt a possibility that they killed some civilians themselves and blamed government forces for it? It is very likely.

Now you sound just like me.


But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

- civil war in Ukraine does not.

It doesnt nullify your point Tibe, because lets be honest, civilians have been killed in the midst of all the fighting, and some assassinated or at least summarily executed (in the juridiction of the LNR and the DNR); but there has been no terrorist attacks in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Ukrainian government, else it would have been reported actively by pro-Kiev to finally have a reason to call the insurgency members terrorists.

At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.

I think we can all agree to this, and I think that it was what DonNicko wanted to say.



On a side note, if the Ukrainian civil war went on for years, as the Russian civil wars did, there is an increasing probability that a part of the insurgency will forgo conventional warfare for guerilla warfare and then terrorist attacks, so the argument we have might be overruled with time passing.

[Molly]

How silly, Butan.

Separatists are occupying Ukrainian cities with military force from the viewpoint of Kiev... So, yea, and they kinda caused civilian casualties by executing certain criminals.

[Kuujis]

<...>
But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

- civil war in Ukraine does not.
<...>
At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.

Why on earth does it matter whether there were terrorists attacks "not in war zone"? Comparatively - if we are talking about civil war in russia, specifically chechnya - majority of  casualties were inflicted via military might in the very chechnya itself. This artificial attempt to somehow justify one separatist movement in Ukraine and overlook another in russia itself as "pure and simple terrorism" is laughable at best, and insincere at worst.
In addition to that - IF you could be arsed to read up - first two terrorist attacks in russia were carried out within 100km of chechnya, which unfortunatly IS area of conflict, when speaking of guerrilla action. FURTHER MORE - it could be argued, that russian actions were the cause of the rise of terrorism, not the other way around (and in any way - it is NOT something I condone, justify or support).

Fast forward 6 months, when russia starts sending trained suicide slav-nation-fanatics to Ukraine to cause similar acts - will you change your mind? (and unfortunately - barring open warfare by russia - this is the only logical outcome of current situation IMO). Were the chechens separatists before their violence spilled out of Chechnya? Was their treatment different from how Ukraine treats their separatist-terrorists? Should it have been different?
I already tried to ask DonNicko about it - he does not know the answer or does not want to answer, so its up in the air... Any other in-the-know russians care to explain maybe?

I think we can all agree to this<...>

No, I do not agree with what you said, its a cheap construct, which tries to marginalize different oppinion, don't use it. You can agree with whoever you want, but talk for yourself.
What DonNicko wanted to say - I have no clue. He is not able to answer simple questions, so its a bit moot point to try to understand or agree with him. What I really think is that he is becoming a bit disillusioned about the actions of his country in another neighboring ex-friendly slav country and this realization starts to sink in and he becomes "not so sure". Or maybe I hope, that this is happening... naive me 

[Kafein]

Now you sound just like me.


But what DonNicko tried to show was the following :

- civil wars in Russian Federation included people planting bombs/taking hostages/assassinating to cause russian casualties, in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Russian Federation, as a tool of war.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

- civil war in Ukraine does not.

It doesnt nullify your point Tibe, because lets be honest, civilians have been killed in the midst of all the fighting, and some assassinated or at least summarily executed (in the juridiction of the LNR and the DNR); but there has been no terrorist attacks in non-war zone civilian areas controlled by the Ukrainian government, else it would have been reported actively by pro-Kiev to finally have a reason to call the insurgency members terrorists.

At the moment, it is clear that the majority of the casualties are done conventionally through military might and around the concerned war zones.
It doesnt rule out murder charges in several circumstances that has been reported in this thread, but it does show that the insurgents are not terrorists and that on this point there is no comparison with the civil wars in Russia.

I think we can all agree to this, and I think that it was what DonNicko wanted to say.



On a side note, if the Ukrainian civil war went on for years, as the Russian civil wars did, there is an increasing probability that a part of the insurgency will forgo conventional warfare for guerilla warfare and then terrorist attacks, so the argument we have might be overruled with time passing.

Actually, if the LNR and DNR people started behaving like actual terrorists then they might have a chance as being seen as legitimate by somebody on the planet. The real LNR and DNR guys are not terrorists because they aren't willing to give up their lives for an ideological cause. It's all business, there's no despair. It takes a very desperate and very confident man to blow himself up. The fact that they are not doing that shows that they are getting massive logistical and military support and also that this conflict is very far from a last resort option for those fighting it, overwhelmingly Russian citizens living in Russia. When this thing is over the survivors will pack their things and go back home.

[Mala]

According to wikipedia, there is 17.3% of the population which are Russians 

naa, that are ukrainian russians aka citizens not russian russians aka mercenaries.

[Thomek]

Russians are fighting there. A russian friend of mine was close to the border in July, and the first person he met on the bus was a russian guy going to the war in Ukraine..