Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Turkhammer]

Where is the connection between Nuclear power you were talking about and Russian oil/gas? You confuse me...
Yea, the mean Green Party. Totally in administration since... well... uhmm... lemme think... not in the last decade, weird. 
Anyway, moving on...

What is the purpose of the gas and oil imported by Germany from Russia?  Is any of it used to generate electricity or is it all used to fuel vehicles and cook sauerbraten?
It seems obvious to me but I'll point out that any portion of imported fossil fuels used for electricity production that could be replaced by nuclear power would lessen dependence on foreign sources.

I can certainly understand the reluctance to live near a nuclear plant and the waste problem, however the potential for being extorted for energy may change that outlook at some point.

I do admire the steps that Germany has taken in housing to conserve heating and cooling usage.  I wish that the technologies and methods used in the German passivhaus program was more widely practiced and available in the States.

[Thomek]

Ukraine's regular armed forces are not very loyal, and in the beginning were frankly completely useless. There are probably still lots of problems with deserters and intel is for sure leaking like tap water.

So they resort to using right sector militias, because that's their only option. Not because it's a good solution. I can imagine those boys not being overly civilized.

Ukraine is a boat shot full of leaking holes by Russia. They are desperately trying to stay afloat by any means, while Russia awaits with the big guns just over the horizon, should their mutiny fail.

About the Gas situation, my theory is that Russia wants Ukraine to be gas dependent. Probably lots of inefficient heating and bad house insulation. Compared to Poland:

Ukraine 1180 m³/year per capita
Poland 420 m³/year per capita

More than twice as much gas used per person..

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_consumption

They should start insulating their houses fast. (Like they do large scale in Poland for some time already)

[Murmillus_Prime]

Ukraine's regular armed forces are not very loyal, and in the beginning were frankly completely useless. There are probably still lots of problems with deserters and intel is for sure leaking like tap water.

So they resort to using right sector militias, because that's their only option. Not because it's a good solution. I can imagine those boys not being overly civilized.

Ukraine is a boat shot full of leaking holes by Russia. They are desperately trying to stay afloat by any means, while Russia awaits with the big guns just over the horizon, should their mutiny fail.

About the Gas situation, my theory is that Russia wants Ukraine to be gas dependent. Probably lots of inefficient heating and bad house insulation. Compared to Poland:

Ukraine 1180 m³/year per capita
Poland 420 m³/year per capita

More than twice as much gas used per person..

source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_consumption

They should start insulating their houses fast. (Like they do large scale in Poland for some time already)

It's a boat shot by all vested interests, it takes two to tango Thomek and all this Russiaphobia and blaming Russia for Ukraine's situation is complete bollocks.

Ukraine, like many other hotspots in the world is a region with a mixed and diverse population of which speak different languages, follow different religions and political ideologies.. Prior to the "EuroMaidan" protests the elected Ukrainian government was after a loan to bolster its failing economy, the EU offered pennies where as Russia offered an economically stimulating amount,  doing what was best for his country (and arguably himself), Yanukovych took Russia's money.. American NGO's then used sections of the Ukrainian population to react toward this deal violently with protests and rioting, at first the police acted with an immense amount of restraint until the skies were literally raining with molotovs and sections of the rioters were using live ammunition on the police.. That's when things quickly escalated.. American/European NGO's USED far right groups to bring about a Western puppet coup government whom then set the conditions for a Western puppet elected government, (not elected by many East Ukrainians it has to be noted) and only THEN did the West through the IMF and the EU offer Ukraine a substantial amount of economic stimulus..

Ukraine is a victim of geopolitics, Russia's geopolitical interests in protecting its sphere of influence and retaining a buffer between its borders and NATO, and NATO member states interests in ruling the whole fucking world and implementing their new world order..

[Turkhammer]

It's a boat shot by all vested interests, it takes two to tango Thomek and all this Russiaphobia and blaming Russia for Ukraine's situation is complete bollocks.

Let's see,

1.President Yanukovych a protege of Putin reneges on a long standing government commitment to move Ukraine closer to EU, under Russian pressure.
2.When the Ukrainian populace takes to the street in protest against this and the endemic government corruption Russian intelligence forces support  the Berkut.
3.Russian forces (thinly disguised) invaded and annexed Crimea, a portion of the sovreign country of Ukraine.
4.Russian proxy forces began a classical destabilization program against eastern Ukraine under the time honored guise of protecting ethnic Russians.
5.Russia is providing sophisticated weapons to it's proxy forces in eastern Ukraine.
6.Russia has massed 15-20,000 troops with armor and heavy weapons on Ukraine's eastern border and has threatened invasion.
7.Russia has fired artillery from it's territory into the Ukraine, against Ukrainian forces.  An act of war, as if the invasion of Crimea was not.

If it takes two to tango Russia is doing all the leading with an unwilling partner.  It's obviously a complete load of bollocks to blame Russia for the situation in Ukraine.

Russiaphobia?  It's plainly commonsense and a matter of survival to have fear of something that has a track record of imposing it's will on it's neighbors by force.
As far as the boat analogy; it's one thing if you and your family want to shoot holes in the family skiff.  It's quite another kettle of fish when your neighbor starts putting holes in it.

[DonNicko]

I just try to equalize, ok let's start, I think this will be my biggets post here

In your native tongue - what is the name for NUMEROUS pictures of separatist controlled BUK system with one missile missing being driven from area of plane destruction to russian territory + announcements (deleted immediately after the true nature of plane was clear) by the very separatist sources about downing another plane of "Ukraine air forces"? I call them "proofs" and given the variance of their sources AND their alignment to one another I find those proofs quite believable.

I have seen numerous pictures of separatist with broken one BUK, about video, that was said that it was Krasnodon near russian border, but that was lie, people on internet found that it was maybe another town but not Krasnodon, there were missing two missiles. Can be that broken one Buk? Yes it can. About announcements, yes he wrote that, then he claimed that he get this info and video from intertnet, he thought that this was another ukranian plane, so he wrote it. He didn't know who shot this plane, and after he knew that it was boeing, deleted his announcements. Not great proofs.
Another version that it was workable BUK and separatists tried to shoot military plane that russian radars showed at the time of crashing of the boeing, this military plane was in one line with commercial plane, so maybe if that BUK shot in that plane but missed and shot boeing. Then why this area were open for flights? And BUK system is not one machine it consists of three. But yes they could shot boeing, but from the earth you cant even see it on the height of 10k km. Without radar system it is almost impossible, but possible)
Another version that ukranian troops shot that plane all interesting facts and transportation of ukranian buks at the date of crash and activisation of working of ukranian buk's radars you can find here, there is english translation

(click to show/hide)

On the contrary - I find "SU 25 at 10k meters altitude" a lacking theory, which is bordering and outright lie and misdirrection (somewhere along the lines of "the plane was full of corpses alread" theory).

Yes, it can't fly on that height, only reach it for few minutes.

Keeping BUK's near the border of ex-friendly country which is on the brink of invasion seems like a reasonable precaution by Ukraine forces. Don't you think so?

Yes, seems it is reasonable, then watch the video I gave, and think why they transferred their BUKs to area of crash, then got them back to the base

And since we like OSCE a lot:
http://www.osce.org/node/122444
On the two first days of its observation (31 July and 1 August), the OM observed several groups of ten to twelve young men in military-style dress with backpacks going to Ukraine from the Russian Federation and coming from Ukraine. In some instances, some of the young men coming back from Ukraine were visibly lightly wounded and on two occasions the OM observed a flag of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” on some young men’s clothes.

There are a lot of volunteers from Russia, Georgia and other countries, who fight there, there are a lot of people from Russia who fight for Ukranian army and a lot of who fight for rebels. Nobody can stop them.

So a friendly "world slav leader" nation allows free passage for rowing bands to/from (when wounded) military zone? I would call that encouragement of war, not attempts to deescalate crisis, contrary to what putler likes to declare left-and-right. In your native tongue - how would you name this?

P.S. It remains a MYSTERY to me, how can it be, that the separatists managed to show themselves to the OSCE observers given that they are present in 2 (!) border crossings in total...

I think that Putin don't even know about them. But I say that there are a lot of volunteers who fight for both sides. So they don't care what Putin will think about them.

P.S.S. Meanwhile in russia - "We have our own" says the headline of todays news paper.
You should laugh at the part where the picture is from 2010 Autumn and the loaf of bread on the able is of Lithuanian manufacuters from some agrarian exposition, where putler and medvedev participated that day.

Yes this is stupid propaganda, our prices will grow now about for 10-20%, but for russians it is common.

Well the separatists got a buk from somewhere. Where did they get it? Cause its 100% certain that the rebels did have a buk and that they shot down that civplane. Cause they admitted owning a buk and shooting down a airplane in socialnetwork, basically minutes before the civilianplane crashed. They even posted pictures of owning a buk on Twitter ffs and later stated that they dont even own one. So they basically admitted everything to the world before they realised what they had just done. Which still creates the question. WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Buks arent built in some guys garage. I kinda agree with you. A direct link to Russia is indeed missing on this one. At first I thought that they had used the ones they claimed from Ukr army bases, but those were considered beond repair broken. Unless they fixed the ones they captured, it could have only been from Russia.

Well it can be, but can not be. I don't know, can't say exactly. Maybe Russia really gave them this buk, but that was only one part of Buk system, if this buk is not that broken one which rebels captured from ukranian base.

[Kafein]

Murmillus, like the Russian state narrative, is completely clueless about who started the Maidan protests.

[Tibe]

(click to show/hide)

It's a boat shot by all vested interests, it takes two to tango Thomek and all this Russiaphobia and blaming Russia for Ukraine's situation is complete bollocks.

Ukraine, like many other hotspots in the world is a region with a mixed and diverse population of which speak different languages, follow different religions and political ideologies.. Prior to the "EuroMaidan" protests the elected Ukrainian government was after a loan to bolster its failing economy, the EU offered pennies where as Russia offered an economically stimulating amount,  doing what was best for his country (and arguably himself), Yanukovych took Russia's money.. American NGO's then used sections of the Ukrainian population to react toward this deal violently with protests and rioting, at first the police acted with an immense amount of restraint until the skies were literally raining with molotovs and sections of the rioters were using live ammunition on the police.. That's when things quickly escalated.. American/European NGO's USED far right groups to bring about a Western puppet coup government whom then set the conditions for a Western puppet elected government, (not elected by many East Ukrainians it has to be noted) and only THEN did the West through the IMF and the EU offer Ukraine a substantial amount of economic stimulus..

Ukraine is a victim of geopolitics, Russia's geopolitical interests in protecting its sphere of influence and retaining a buffer between its borders and NATO, and NATO member states interests in ruling the whole fucking world and implementing their new world order..

You got any proof of that? A lot of people, such as yourself, claim that EU and USA were all responsible and shit for Maidan. But if you think about it, theres really nothing. No propaganda, no sending weapons, nothing. I highly doubt a few politicans visits from USA can be considered as any proof at all. Its frankly quite easy to say that mybe the Ukrainains just had enough with being a lapdog for the Eastern bear and decided to break free. Why is it so hard to belive that simple version? Its quite logical and it has happened multiple times before. And new world order? When was the last time NATO annexed anything? In Europe the main weapons it has are basically all ment for defensive purpose. Look at Russia, they got fucking offensive weapons of mass destruction basically aimed at every country they neibhour. Already that should give you a clear clue of who is really evil here. Also dont forget Russia made NATO its enemy, not the other way around. Majority of countries in Eastern-EU, that are in NATO dont even want to be in it, but frankly to ensure their sovergnity while living next to Russia they have noone else to turn to.

[Turkhammer]

Putin tightens the screws in Russia:

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-demands-internet-users-show-id-access-public-160535546.html

Seems like he doesn't want any exchange of communications other that what is officially sanctioned. 

Russian citizens, enjoy your trip in Putin's time machine back to the good old 1960s and 70s.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Let's see,

1.President Yanukovych a protege of Putin reneges on a long standing government commitment to move Ukraine closer to EU, under Russian pressure.
2.When the Ukrainian populace takes to the street in protest against this and the endemic government corruption Russian intelligence forces support  the Berkut.
3.Russian forces (thinly disguised) invaded and annexed Crimea, a portion of the sovreign country of Ukraine.
4.Russian proxy forces began a classical destabilization program against eastern Ukraine under the time honored guise of protecting ethnic Russians.
5.Russia is providing sophisticated weapons to it's proxy forces in eastern Ukraine.
6.Russia has massed 15-20,000 troops with armor and heavy weapons on Ukraine's eastern border and has threatened invasion.
7.Russia has fired artillery from it's territory into the Ukraine, against Ukrainian forces.  An act of war, as if the invasion of Crimea was not.

If it takes two to tango Russia is doing all the leading with an unwilling partner.  It's obviously a complete load of bollocks to blame Russia for the situation in Ukraine.

Russiaphobia?  It's plainly commonsense and a matter of survival to have fear of something that has a track record of imposing it's will on it's neighbors by force.
As far as the boat analogy; it's one thing if you and your family want to shoot holes in the family skiff.  It's quite another kettle of fish when your neighbor starts putting holes in it.

Bullshit mate.

Answer time.

1. Trading one foreign influence for another would have not resolved Ukraine's problems.
2. It's a shame that the protest against corruption was not just a protest, it was a full blown violent riot.
3. Russian forces did not annex Crimea, the Crimean population overwhelming voted to be re-incorporated into Russia, Russia already had troops stationed in Crimea as agreed with the last legitimate Ukrainian government.
4. Influenced by what happened in Crimea, revolted by the fact one of the first actions of the coup government was to remove Russian as an official  language status and the fact the protagonists in the coup had strong neo-N azi ties directly and indirectly sections of Eastern Ukrainian society revolted.
5. Many of the rebels weapons were captured from existing weapons stockpiles and from the new weapons stock piles amassed by encircled Ukrainian units the rebels had overwhelmed.
6. Russia is amassing troops and tanks and aeroplanes in response to NATO exercises and escalation in the region and the continuous shelling and rocket fire targeting Russian checkpoints being fired by Ukrainian forces.
7. See point 6.

Many neo- N azi affiliated with the current Ukrainian regime have expressed wishes to commit genocide against Russians, including a former Ukrainian president Yulia Tymoshenko expressing wishes to nuke Russia and slaughter the Russian people. This has further driven divisions amongst the Ukrainians further solidifying the East Ukrainian separatists justification for their actions. Remember, many Ukrainians fought along side the soviet Union against chocolate chip cookie Germany in WW2 and many suffered atrocities at the hands of chocolate chip cookie's first hand, this leaves a bitter impression for many Ukrainians when they find out their new government has chocolate chip cookie's in it.

[Murmillus_Prime]

You got any proof of that? A lot of people, such as yourself, claim that EU and USA were all responsible and shit for Maidan. But if you think about it, theres really nothing. No propaganda, no sending weapons, nothing. I highly doubt a few politicans visits from USA can be considered as any proof at all. Its frankly quite easy to say that mybe the Ukrainains just had enough with being a lapdog for the Eastern bear and decided to break free. Why is it so hard to belive that simple version? Its quite logical and it has happened multiple times before. And new world order? When was the last time NATO annexed anything? In Europe the main weapons it has are basically all ment for defensive purpose. Look at Russia, they got fucking offensive weapons of mass destruction basically aimed at every country they neibhour. Already that should give you a clear clue of who is really evil here. Also dont forget Russia made NATO its enemy, not the other way around. Majority of countries in Eastern-EU, that are in NATO dont even want to be in it, but frankly to ensure their sovergnity while living next to Russia they have noone else to turn to.

Only half of Ukraine wanted to increase ties with the EU, as stated previously, when a Russian puppet government under Yanukovych wasin power they were offered a pathetic loan by the EU, only after the EU installed their puppet through manipulation of government dissenters, neo N azis and Russiaphobes had the EU and IMF offered Ukraine a substantial amount. That is all the proof you need, that is without all those telephone conversations with Ms Nuland being pissed off with the EU for not doing what the U.S had urged it to do in regards to Ukraine and other information sources which point towards external interference.. Recently American NGO's were caught trying to stir dissent in Cuba, they did it in Cuba in the past, they did it in Ukraine and they're trying to do it in Cuba again.

Now you want to question NATO's aggression by using the word annex? How about using the words REGIME CHANGE, then NATO can be pulled up for that NUMEROUS times in the 21st century, actions which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions and in THIS CENTURY ALONE. Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.

I was right about Libya and Syria and I'm right about Ukraine.

[Lt_Anders]

Only half of Ukraine wanted to increase ties with the EU, as stated previously, when a Russian puppet government under Yanukovych wasin power they were offered a pathetic loan by the EU, only after the EU installed their puppet through manipulation of government dissenters, neo N azis and Russiaphobes had the EU and IMF offered Ukraine a substantial amount. That is all the proof you need, that is without all those telephone conversations with Ms Nuland being pissed off with the EU for not doing what the U.S had urged it to do in regards to Ukraine and other information sources which point towards external interference.. Recently American NGO's were caught trying to stir dissent in Cuba, they did it in Cuba in the past, they did it in Ukraine and they're trying to do it in Cuba again.

Now you want to question NATO's aggression by using the word annex? How about using the words REGIME CHANGE, then NATO can be pulled up for that NUMEROUS times in the 21st century, actions which have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, potentially millions and in THIS CENTURY ALONE. Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.

I was right about Libya and Syria and I'm right about Ukraine.

HI TOVI.

[Tibe]

.....
Russia cannot and has not ever acted or behaved in such a way this century and has only ever acted within its own sphere of influence and not across the entire globe as NATO do.. Is your head in the fucking sand? Too many brainwashed pricks carelessly watch the world sink into the abyss, lubricated by ignorance.
.....

And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).

[DonNicko]

And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).

Just interresting how Russia showed as a threat in 90's, As I remember Russia were weak, maybe I missed smth. But Nato were continuing their influence to the East

[Murmillus_Prime]

And how is NATO exactly carelessly sinking a world into abyss? NATO would have shitton less influence everywhere if Russia itself didnt pose itself as a threat. Which it clearly does. And no this isnt Western propaganda since Kremlins politicians have no isses with bluntly stating to the world that they are assholes. This NATO fear is totally idiotic. Its got no background whatsoever. Sure it has ruined some countries, but name some worldpower that hasnt. China, Russia, France, Brittain etc. They all have ruined and broken countries inferior to their own to make their own supreme. NATO is one fucking hell of a lot better choice to be dominated over than China or whatever the fuck Russia would coup up. Give someone else the tools to rule the world and they will definately sink it. Atleast NATO has some regard for human life (compared to the other supreme powers in the world).

NATO has "ruined some countries"? That's just like Obama saying, "we've tortured some folk", a complete and utter understatement to disguise blatant and overt hypocrisy.

NATO, as an alliance led by the U.S INVADED TWO nations, Afghanistan and Iraq, (look where that's got us, read the headlines lately?), had forced regime change in Libya, (look where that's got us, read the headlines lately?), NATO member states including the U.S, Britain, Turkey and more have funded and armed rebels and jihadi's in Syria with their allies in Saudi-Arabia, (look where that has got us, read the headlines lately?), NATO member state the United States of America frequently conducts drone strikes over Yemen, Pakistan and Sudan, inflicting civilian majority casualties..

THIS IS ALL IN THE PAST 14 YEARS.

Not to mention Serbia and Kosovo in the 90's...

Head in the sand much? NATO's military projection, it's leading state (the U.S)being the only nation in the world to have dropped nuclear weaponry (on civilians too), have invaded, attacked, occupied, funded and armed conflict via proxy more than any other nation in the world in the past 100 years. Russia simply does not compare and cannot compare to the depravity, chaos and blood shed by NATO and NATO state actions.

Head in the sand MUCH?

And you say Russia has nothing to fear? And Russia is the belligerent party here? Pathetic.

[Kafein]

Just interresting how Russia showed as a threat in 90's, As I remember Russia were weak, maybe I missed smth. But Nato were continuing their influence to the East

You don't get it. Russia wasn't a "threat" in the 90's (neither is it today tbh.). Is it so hard to accept that Russia is not a good friend, and that everybody would rather look towards prosperous, pacifist and functional democracies? NATO didn't push East (or if it did, show me the tanks), it's the "Soviet Empire" that crumbled. If you think people from East Germany to Estonia actually liked being Soviet subjects, you need to take an unbiased 20th century history course, something I'm sure is quite hard to find in Russia, even today.