Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Christo]

Again some jokes, and nothing about, Today I saw that 62% of people in Great Britain condemn Israel and think that Israel makes war crime, more then 1000 civilians were killed. In Ukraine 1268 civilians were killed and Great Britain supports Ukraine.

DonNicko transformed 'Meanwhile Russia in Ukraine' into 'Meanwhile in Israel in Britain in Russia in Ukraine'

[Mala]

Seems this topic transforms into meanwhile in Russia. Guys just interesting what do you think about shelling of civilians by Ukranian troops, ...

war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.

...what do you think about kidnapping people by Ukranian troops. ...

in a conflict zone you can´t trust no one.

...What do you think about 800000 refugees which went to Russia. ...

their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.

...And what do you think about more then 400 ukranian troops who were betrayed by their comanders and asked separatists to make humanitarian corridor to save their lifes. ...

and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?

...Interesting why terrorists helped them. I ask it, because havn't seen reaction on this facts, just blaming Russia.

the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."

[Grumbs]

Again some jokes, and nothing about, Today I saw that 62% of people in Great Britain condemn Israel and think that Israel makes war crime, more then 1000 civilians were killed. In Ukraine 1268 civilians were killed and Great Britain supports Ukraine.

Isn't Ukraine defending their own country against insurgents. Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane? Ukraine are defending against aggression, Israel are attacking an established territory. Lots more depth involved than that but it seems if people were to support someone it would be easier to support Ukraine than Israel

[DonNicko]

war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.

Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines

their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.

Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?

and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?

In that situation ofcource I would cross the border. I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war

the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."

Yeah, yeah ofcourse, maybe like that

Isn't Ukraine defending their own country against insurgents. Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane? Ukraine are defending against aggression, Israel are attacking an established territory. Lots more depth involved than that but it seems if people were to support someone it would be easier to support Ukraine than Israel

Insurgents are ukranians, yes they are supported by Russia, about shooting down a commercial plane do you have any proofs? Ukranian army once already shot down commercial plane in 2001 by mistake. What agression, they try to get territory back. The territory where people don't agree with current government.

[Butan]

Insurgents that are supported by a very powerful neighbour country? One that has now even shot down a commercial plane?

If you're talking about russia, there is only stupid people still believing they directly shot the airplane down...
One point of unconventional warfare is to not soil your hands.

war, war never changes. no party fights fair or holds the fire even if a little girl and her puppy dog crosses the firelines.
it is simply bad luck, be at the wrong time at the wrong place.
in a conflict zone you can´t trust no one.
their options were to stay and catch a stray bullet or to wait at a safer place until it is over.
and their options were to stay in the pocket and to die or to cross the border and to be alive.
what way would you have picked?

the rebel/terrorist/freedomfighters need some good pr, lately.
in addition this is part of the propaganda war like "these brutes bomb helpless civilians and their puppy dogs but we are on a higher humanitarian level so that we even patch up your wounded enemies."

You're making very logical points and I applaud your common sense, but DonNicko is more than welcome to show some not-friendly facts: on this thread there has been a lot of holier-than-thou going on, its good to balance the field and remind everyone that both sides are at war, with noone being evil or good.

After being flooded with facts which shows that rebels kills, rebels rape, rebels kidnap, rebels lies... after a time you begin to think that they are brute and the Ukrainian army is the arm of justice. Some will forever think that but they should not feel concerned by objective statements anyway.

[Kuujis]

Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines

They die because putler and his sheep russians do not want Ukraine to be free and they started armed insurgency to destabilize Ukraine. Shelling and unfortunate deaths are outcomes.

Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?

If you get told repetedly, that there is natszsees on one side and heroes on another side and you got serious lack of critical thinking - there is not much choice. Also - don't generalize, not everyone went east, there are refugees on both sides.

<...> I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war.

Because SOME have a thing called INTEGRITY and are actually willing to die for their country, invaded by idiot separatists.

<...>The territory where people don't agree with current government.

Old news dude, it was never majority afaik. MAYBE in small locations. In any case - vocal brainwashed minority encouraged, supplied and led by russian agents DID start this bullshit. Now I don't think there are any significant separatist leaders of Ukrainian ascent in the leadership and you still tout bullshit about local populace...

Substract putlers media uproar and rest russian created BS from Ukraine since new year and you would have a VERY different country, which would STILL be semi-friendly to the slav world... Now? Now you have friends in South America and a future overlord in China. Good luck.

[Overdriven]

Well I can agree if people die on the field, but those shelling was there where no separatists were seen. People die on the busstop, while walking to the work, in a hospital, there wasn't any firelines
Why they then went to Russia, not to Ukraine?
In that situation ofcource I would cross the border. I don't know why they still try to continue that stupid war
Yeah, yeah ofcourse, maybe like that
Insurgents are ukranians, yes they are supported by Russia, about shooting down a commercial plane do you have any proofs? Ukranian army once already shot down commercial plane in 2001 by mistake. What agression, they try to get territory back. The territory where people don't agree with current government.

Did you give Tovi your password?

[DonNicko]

Did you give Tovi your password?

What do you mean? I wrote something wrong? I gave facts that OSCE gave and has it on their site.

Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit. I gave facts and asked your opinion, and again Putin and russian sheeps and so on
Especially for you Kuujis go the the East Ukraine and ask people and you will see majority it is or local groups.

Ukranian TV(not oficial)
Ukranian troops that crossed russian border to save their lifes, now travell by train in Ukraine, they don't know where and when they will be freed, three days they are without water and food. Comander said that they are deserters

(click to show/hide)

[Christo]

Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit.

Well how could you blame Kuujis for that? 'Tis such a relief when it finally happens.

 

[Kuujis]

What do you mean? I wrote something wrong? I gave facts that OSCE gave and has it on their site.

Kuujis, sometimes I think that you just like to shit. I gave facts and asked your opinion, and again Putin and russian sheeps and so on
Especially for you Kuujis go the the East Ukraine and ask people and you will see majority it is or local groups.

Ukranian TV(not oficial)
Ukranian troops that crossed russian border to save their lifes, now travell by train in Ukraine, they don't know where and when they will be freed, three days they are without water and food. Comander said that they are deserters

(click to show/hide)

Did you mention this OSCE report http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/26518909.html ? :)

And the same OSCE guys talking to the soldiers who crossed the border painted quite a different picture... But lets SKIP this, not some comfortable news aye? http://www.osce.org/ukraine/122446

There was this company doing the actual populace interviews and gouging their opinion before all this BS was started and it is what I said - MINORITY wanted to cause BS and they were encouraged and helped by russia with putlers media brainwashed sheep believing putler with 80% devotion. Next stop - north korea.

And yes, I do like to relieve myself, as Christo pointed out. Is that relevant somehow?

[DonNicko]

From OSCE

The mayor of Velykomykhailivka (165km southeast of Dnepropetrovsk city) told the SMM that Right Sector activists, based in a training camp at a village close to the boundary with the Donetsk region, had been harassing local people. He alleged that some of the activists, sometimes drunk, had specifically fired shots in the air, stolen vehicles at checkpoints manned by them, and had entered houses, and intimidated women. The police, he said, were powerless to act, and the authorities, at a higher level, were doing nothing to stop this behaviour. Similar allegations were made by local inhabitants in mid-July.

[Christo]

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That's pretty weaksauce, considering the other side shot down a civilian airliner.

etc.etc.

Or what is the current russian opinion about that one? UFO's or Obama did it?

[DonNicko]

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That's pretty weaksauce, considering the other side shot down a civilian airliner.

etc.etc.

Or what is the current russian opinion about that one? UFO's or Obama did it?

There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs

[Kuujis]

There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs

In your native tongue - what is the name for NUMEROUS pictures of separatist controlled BUK system with one missile missing being driven from area of plane destruction to russian territory + announcements (deleted immediately after the true nature of plane was clear) by the very separatist sources about downing another plane of "Ukraine air forces"? I call them "proofs" and given the variance of their sources AND their alignment to one another I find those proofs quite believable.

On the contrary - I find "SU 25 at 10k meters altitude" a lacking theory, which is bordering and outright lie and misdirrection (somewhere along the lines of "the plane was full of corpses alread" theory).

Keeping BUK's near the border of ex-friendly country which is on the brink of invasion seems like a reasonable precaution by Ukraine forces. Don't you think so?

And since we like OSCE a lot:
http://www.osce.org/node/122444
On the two first days of its observation (31 July and 1 August), the OM observed several groups of ten to twelve young men in military-style dress with backpacks going to Ukraine from the Russian Federation and coming from Ukraine. In some instances, some of the young men coming back from Ukraine were visibly lightly wounded and on two occasions the OM observed a flag of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” on some young men’s clothes.

So a friendly "world slav leader" nation allows free passage for rowing bands to/from (when wounded) military zone? I would call that encouragement of war, not attempts to deescalate crisis, contrary to what putler likes to declare left-and-right. In your native tongue - how would you name this?

P.S. It remains a MYSTERY to me, how can it be, that the separatists managed to show themselves to the OSCE observers given that they are present in 2 (!) border crossings in total...

P.S.S. Meanwhile in russia - "We have our own" says the headline of todays news paper. visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 
You should laugh at the part where the picture is from 2010 Autumn and the loaf of bread on the able is of Lithuanian manufacuters from some agrarian exposition, where putler and medvedev participated that day.

[Tibe]

There is no official russian opinion. Because they don't have any direct proof. Only that at time of shooting there were three ukranian system of buks, and ukranian plane were near the Boeing. And ofcourse west has direct proofs that Russia did it, or wait they don't. But Ok, just say that russia did it everyone will believe it without proofs

Well the separatists got a buk from somewhere. Where did they get it? Cause its 100% certain that the rebels did have a buk and that they shot down that civplane. Cause they admitted owning a buk and shooting down a airplane in socialnetwork, basically minutes before the civilianplane crashed. They even posted pictures of owning a buk on Twitter ffs and later stated that they dont even own one. So they basically admitted everything to the world before they realised what they had just done. Which still creates the question. WHERE DID IT COME FROM? Buks arent built in some guys garage. I kinda agree with you. A direct link to Russia is indeed missing on this one. At first I thought that they had used the ones they claimed from Ukr army bases, but those were considered beond repair broken. Unless they fixed the ones they captured, it could have only been from Russia.

u're making very logical points and I applaud your common sense, but DonNicko is more than welcome to show some not-friendly facts: on this thread there has been a lot of holier-than-thou going on, its good to balance the field and remind everyone that both sides are at war, with noone being evil or good.

You with your utterly retarded "theres 2 sides to a conflict" logic again. Pretty sure Genghis Khan murdered millions of civilians cause they were somehow to blame. Quite sure all those countries Hit ler invaded had it totally coming. Seriuslly man....wtf kinda logic is that? Althou yea, DonNicko is quite alright dude. He wont convince me, but he's cool.