Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Vovka]

One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.

the most important part, that if the Living standard in Russia dropped by 200% nuks will drop on  Europe - Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.  XD

[Molly]

One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.

Doubt that's a healthy mind set for a populace tho and you make it sound like it is...

[Xant]

One thing to consider:

Living standard in Russia drops 150%. What happens? Support to Putin drops maybe 10-15% and nothing else.

Living standard in (insert name of democratic Western country) drops 10-15%. What happens? Government falls, social turmoil, general strikes, support to right wings grows etc.

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.

When you say "one thing to consider", you make it sound like this is a fact. It's not. It's just your opinion. I'm not holding my breath waiting for western governments to fall because of Russia's economical sanctions....

[Kuujis]

Doubt that's a healthy mind set for a populace tho and you make it sound like it is...

Its  a bit relative... Lets say your "Living Standart" in West is "over 9000" 10% of that might be more than 50% of russian "Living Standart", thus - the impact is also bigger.

It's also about expectations and management of thereof - when you don't expect anything good - the impact of that bad happening is smaller. I would doubt anyone would hold putler accountable for the sanctions his actions brought about, because its the fault "OF THEM" and one would NEVER be allowed to consider in some high profile RT program that maybe current government is actually doing complete bat-shit crazy bullshit and the fault is on the current government instead of "THEM".

Its healthy for sheep populace, which one wants/needs to control. Its not healthy if you want the populace to be akin to swedes or austrians.

And a nice timelapse of recent Ukraine warfare action: http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/LiveUMap-Timelapse-July-13-Aug5.gif

[serr]

And a nice timelapse of recent Ukraine warfare action: http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/LiveUMap-Timelapse-July-13-Aug5.gif

Sadly, it's a bit too optimistic. In fact our army almost cut DNR from LNR, but only almost. Separatists still control road Shakhtarsk-Torez, though it's not safe for them anymore.

[Butan]

What I am saying is that Russia can dish less than the West, but it can take a hell of a lot more.

It may be a cultural reality (russian being tougher) but it could also be a fabrication of the minds... I'm not sure if they would fare that much better if the reality was as you depicted (living standard dropping both sides).

Sadly, it's a bit too optimistic. In fact our army almost cut DNR from LNR, but only almost. Separatists still control road Shakhtarsk-Torez, though it's not safe for them anymore.

Just a side question: how united/divided are the DNR and LNR in terms of leadership and military control? Its the same body but divided in two regional zones, or they act separately?

And thanks Kuujis for the timelapse, interesting to see the zone of control over time. If the size is accurately depicted, the Donetsk part has been pretty cut down. But does it mean that they have progressively retreated to safer/more concentrated zones, or did they also lose manpower and strategical points?




Meanwhile in Ukraine... the war for correct wording continues ! http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26235-ukraine-urges-great-britain-to-recognize-so-called-dnr-and-lnr-as-terrorists
The rebels are terrorists, I urge the world to recognize them as such, because they are undoubtedly, and not just because its a bad word that will mean people think bad of them!


Those past few years, the term of terrorist has been so misused.
Now it only is a word which is used by nations to describe a small opposing force.

[serr]

Just a side question: how united/divided are the DNR and LNR in terms of leadership and military control? Its the same body but divided in two regional zones, or they act separately?

They have common enemy and they are supplied by Russia, that's what unite them. Other than that they are very different, there are some conflicts between them. Roughly, without going in details, LNR want to build USSR and DNR want to build Russian Empire.
Also DNR has better commanders, but LNR is closer to Russia and therefore have more equipment, especially tanks.

[Kuujis]

And thanks Kuujis for the timelapse, interesting to see the zone of control over time. If the size is accurately depicted, the Donetsk part has been pretty cut down. But does it mean that they have progressively retreated to safer/more concentrated zones, or did they also lose manpower and strategical points?

Well... Its easy to control open fields and its HARD to hold them against stronger foe. Thus - its the only logical and semi-viable, even if regrettable, tactic to retreat to a city. In the most recent VICE News dispatch Ukr officers said they were finding a bunch of abandoned control posts, so it is likely, that the separatists retreated without even a fight to "fight another day".
Its actually what Lithuania has in its plans for defence until (hopefuly) NATO comes in case of an attack - dig-in and stand ground in cities. Its NOTORIOUSLY difficult to wage wars in cities... Then again - if one is russian and has leaders like putler - well... there was this one town called Grozno, where standing ground in a city was attempted.

Meanwhile in Ukraine... the war for correct wording continues ! http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/foreign-offices-news/26235-ukraine-urges-great-britain-to-recognize-so-called-dnr-and-lnr-as-terrorists
The rebels are terrorists, I urge the world to recognize them as such, because they are undoubtedly, and not just because its a bad word that will mean people think bad of them!

Those past few years, the term of terrorist has been so misused.
Now it only is a word which is used by nations to describe a small opposing force.

Did you by chance had an opportuninty to study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics ? I have one friend who had, she is VERY like you in this regard of new usage for words...
It only took half a year for a symbol of Bravery and Heroism in WW2 (in reality afaik its 100+ years old) to become a marking of some separatists causing all kinds of bs in Ukraine. MAYBE they want to see themselves as heroes, but to a HUGE part of former participants in WW2 they are mere wannabees and bandits... Words and symbols change meaning, sometimes its a matter of POV. I think there are plenty in current war zone, who would label separatists as bandits, idiots, robbers, thugs and what not... And there are those who thing that the Saing George strips still represent what they once used to represent (GUESS what I think?  )

[Tibe]

It may be a cultural reality (russian being tougher) but it could also be a fabrication of the minds... I'm not sure if they would fare that much better if the reality was as you depicted (living standard dropping both sides).

It mainly still depends on the goods traded to eachother. The West imports mainly fuels, as far as ive understood almost all EU countries in theory anyway can survive without importing fuel from Russia, its just that average livingcost is gonna be hell of a lot more expensive for the regular citizens. Especially during winter. Russia imports more viable things. Like food. As much as I know if they are gonna get their ass sanctioned out of them, meat is gonna be a very rare thing in Russia cause they dont produce enough to fill the needs of their own market atm. But they can easly survive that aswell, by just eating....well other things. Both are gonna have a tough time eventually.

[Vovka]

It mainly still depends on the goods traded to eachother. The West imports mainly fuels, as far as ive understood almost all EU countries in theory anyway can survive without importing fuel from Russia,

 
tell them how to do it, and you will be the new president of Europe  just lol

[Tibe]

Way to cut off half of my text and put it out of context.....Da fuck is wrong with u dude?

By fuel I ment natural gas. One might look at a chart like this:

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and say "wow 100% they must really be dependant". But thats wrong. That chart just shows how much gas is imported from russia, not how much gas is USED. Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels. Like I said, one can survive without it, but its gonna be a lot more costly.

[Turkhammer]

tell them how to do it, and you will be the new president of Europe  just lol

Germany could reverse the rash decision to cut it's nuclear power plants.  The USA passed both Russia and Saudi Arabia as the world's leading producer of oil in 2013 and is projected to remain so until 2030 or so and it has huge reserves of natural gas.  There are alternates for Europe to Russian oil and gas but they aren't short term options.  It would take several years to build the infrastructure required.

[DonNicko]

Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels.

Sure for president

[DonNicko]

Three Ukranian journalists were freed, All ukranian medias said that separatists kidnapped them and then let them free, but that was Ukranian troops, they stole all money, cameras and so on kept them for 5 days doing wierd things for Ukranians, there is no english subtitles

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[Vovka]

Way to cut off half of my text and put it out of context.....Da fuck is wrong with u dude?
By fuel I ment natural gas. One might look at a chart like this:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

and say "wow 100% they must really be dependant". But thats wrong. That chart just shows how much gas is imported from russia, not how much gas is USED. Countries natural gas input in energy consumption is relatively small and they can easly be replaced by other fuels. Like I said, one can survive without it, but its gonna be a lot more costly.

whole manufacture are designed for a specific type and brand of energy carrier and you're trying to say that a switching from gas or oil to another source of energy, about the same as to change the supplier of meat / vegetables / equipment / medicines (insert your own). Anyway http://rt.com/news/178484-putin-russia-sanctions-agriculture/
Hope tomorrow EU will ban import gas and oil from russia for 1 year