Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Tibe]

Man fate of Königsberg is really sad imo. A town with massive history like that. Got given to the red army WW2, they expelled or enslaved the native population and than destroyed the entire town completely. Would have been a really remarkable town had the Soviet Union ordered its rebuilding after the war instead of burning it to the ground for being too german by culture....

[Butan]

Man fate of Königsberg is really sad imo. A town with massive history like that. Got given to the red army WW2, they expelled or enslaved the native population and than destroyed the entire town completely. Would have been a really remarkable town had the Soviet Union ordered its rebuilding after the war instead of burning it to the ground for being too german by culture....

The city was destroyed at 95% by allies/soviet union bombing/shelling before and during the final siege of 1945, it was rebuilt post-capture as Kaliningrad.
It wasnt "given" to the red army, it was conquered and the price was around 60 000 casualties for the Russians.
I dont know where you learnt that they enslaved the native population, I just read that the german population was expelled.

Good attempt at rewriting history, but a bit too big to pass.

[Vovka]

 :P :P :P :P

[Tibe]

The city was destroyed at 95% by allies/soviet union bombing/shelling before and during the final siege of 1945, it was rebuilt post-capture as Kaliningrad.
It wasnt "given" to the red army, it was conquered and the price was around 60 000 casualties for the Russians.

But when the Allied Forces gave the essentially destroyed City of Königsberg to the Soviets in 1945 they took a different approach. They simply bulldozed the remains of most bombed-out structures away after going through the rubble for still-usable building materials which were shipped back to Mother Russia. Thus, the possibility of their eventual restoration was essentially eliminated, while some buildings were left standing in their bombed-out condition until as recent as today Also the % is extremely debatable. Some say 80% and some say 40%. Who knows. Il give the "giving" part as debatable aswell.

I dont know where you learnt that they enslaved the native population, I just read that the german population was expelled.

The remaining population of some 300,000 Germans was condemned to forced labor and subjected to starvation and epidemics.

Also massrape was a thing for the brave red army and over 13 million people were displaced. The soviets made a gigantic mass ethnic cleansing in the area. I cant find the link anymore, but it kinda stated that when the time came to rebuild some of the architecture, the guy in charge ordered even more of it to be taken down, since it had to much similarities to the german culture. Ofcourse some of it was rebuilt during WW2.

Good attempt at rewriting history, but a bit too big to pass.
Why must you always argue when you have been proven so wrong so many times? You should always consider passing. Nomatter how big.

[Butan]

There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.

[Molly]

There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.

There is enough French people in this forum to give France a bad name, why must you keep being one I wonder.

[Vovka]

let's take a break from swearing and enjoy the beautiful music

[okiN]

There is enough historical events to give russians a bad name, why must you create more I wonder.

Not sure why you think he's making it up, that the Russians totally neglected the postwar restoration of Königsberg is hardly a secret. They've done just as bad a job with other annexed areas, only reason they're not quite as fucked as Kaliningrad today is that they weren't in such a bad state when they fell into Soviet hands. As for the other thing:

About 120,000 survivors remained in the ruins of the devastated city. These survivors, mainly women, children and the elderly, plus a few others who had returned immediately after the fighting ended, were held as slave labourers until 1949. The vast majority of the German civilians left in Königsberg after 1945 died from disease or starvation, or in revenge-driven ethnic cleansing.[65] The remaining 20,000 German residents were expelled in 1949–50.[66]

I'm sure you could find lots of sources if you were actually interested.

[Butan]

Missed that source, mea culpa 

In the same wiki part, they speak of russians and poles slave laborers under german rule, and death marchs + mass executions at the end of the nazi regime, I guess thats where the revenge-driven ethnic cleansing comes. Some background information doesnt hurt


Still calling bullshit on the overly exagerated bits of Tibe post. When you use words like enslaving entire native population and burning the city to the ground, you better back it with source and not just anti-russianism, which has became the norm in this thread, and this is the sad part imo, not how Konigsberg was treated 70 years ago.




When is the last time someone posted a hot news on whats happening in Ukraine?

[Corwin]

One thing I don't understand from military point of view, and I would really appreciate if someone would explain it to me.

Looking at the map, I don't understand why UKR army is focusing on encircling directly Donetsk and Luhansk. I expect this would be followed by an attack to those cities.

The most logical thing would be, IMHO, to concentrate to cutting off border with Russia. In doing so they would be able to use planes, tanks, artillery and whatnot, because there would be no fears of rebels using human shields or protecting themselves in basements and buildings they would in Donetsk and Luhansk. And at the same time, it would mean effectively cutting off both of these cities, since food and ammunition are definately coming from across the border. Eventually if the border is firmly held, they would have no choice but to surrender. Urban warfare, as proven here in former Yugoslavia, is a nightmare for the attackers, even when they don't give a shit for lives of civilians.

I am sure there is a logic behind what UKR army is doing, but I don't get it. If someone would explain this to me I would appreciate it.

[Vovka]

(click to show/hide)

One thing I don't understand from military point of view, and I would really appreciate if someone would explain it to me.

Looking at the map, I don't understand why UKR army is focusing on encircling directly Donetsk and Luhansk. I expect this would be followed by an attack to those cities.

The most logical thing would be, IMHO, to concentrate to cutting off border with Russia. In doing so they would be able to use planes, tanks, artillery and whatnot, because there would be no fears of rebels using human shields or protecting themselves in basements and buildings they would in Donetsk and Luhansk. And at the same time, it would mean effectively cutting off both of these cities, since food and ammunition are definately coming from across the border. Eventually if the border is firmly held, they would have no choice but to surrender. Urban warfare, as proven here in former Yugoslavia, is a nightmare for the attackers, even when they don't give a shit for lives of civilians.

I am sure there is a logic behind what UKR army is doing, but I don't get it. If someone would explain this to me I would appreciate it.

if they will control the entire border, they can not accuse Russia of supporting terrorists. Nobody will give money for the fight against terrorism, but for the war with Russia there is alot sponsors. a fortiori  that all loans are returned back to them for the purchase of weapons. Why spend the credits for the restoration of the plant, the construction of which is necessary to report that, much more tempting to buy shells, shoot 100 report on the 1000.  war is a good business ^^

When is the last time someone posted a hot news on whats happening in Ukraine?

nothing new, Ukrainians shelling separatists and civilians, separatists shelling themselves and civilians, Russians bombs all XD

I'm a little surprised why the Russian or the terrorists have not yet been bombed OSCE mission or EU commision on crash site 

[Butan]

nothing new, Ukrainians shelling separatists and civilians, separatists shelling themselves and civilians, Russians bombs all XD

I'm a little surprised why the Russian or the terrorists have not yet been bombed OSCE mission or EU commision on crash site 

Surely there is a little more to that, details and all, from multiple point of views!

I would gladly go back to a hundred page ago, at least we were arguing on things that we know happened in Ukraine, not history or conspirations

[Molly]

Surely there is a little more to that, details and all, from multiple point of views!

I would gladly go back to a hundred page ago, at least we were arguing on things that we know happened in Ukraine, not history or conspirations

Tovi and you only accepting viewpoints which fit your general idea of "truth" makes it pretty pointless to post any information in this thread...

[Kafein]

Still calling bullshit on the overly exagerated bits of Tibe post. When you use words like enslaving entire native population and burning the city to the ground, you better back it with source and not just anti-russianism, which has became the norm in this thread, and this is the sad part imo, not how Konigsberg was treated 70 years ago.

Please explain how clearing out your ignorance of history is even remotely similar to "anti-russianism" ?

Anti-russianism would be "There are so many russian alcoholics, they must be weak-willed to succumb so easily to the bottle".

[Kuujis]

Tovi and you only accepting viewpoints which fit your general idea of "truth" makes it pretty pointless to post any information in this thread...

For evil stupid to win it is enough for good people everyone else to simply do say nothing.

As to why it the border is not yet fully closed - I can think of a few reasons:
1. You want your enemy to be predictable - thus you leave a corridor for them to get supplies. Once you have enough progress elsewhere (and maybe the border with russia reinforced WHOLE 2k of kilometers) - the corridor can be closed quickly enough. +in this manner it is easier to observe and gather intelligence on the capabilities/supplies being transferred. What you DON'T want in place of Ukraine army is 2000 km of border with armed idiots punching through in once place or another. And while this explanation partially feeds Vovkas conspiracy theory - one has to choose a lesser evil in this case. So when it comes to LONG and tough to control border Vs narrow and observable border - choose the lesser evil: narrow and observable one.
2. The corridor is maximum distance away from Donetsk. Longer supply lines mean more problems for separatists and more opportunities for ambush by Ukrainian troops.
3. Might be logistical/terrain issues, but these are impossibru to figure out, without detailed knowledge of the area and logistical situation. E.g. if the territory is all swamps and forests and majority of roads go the general east to west direction - then the movement of Ukraine forces from North to south would be very complicated and slow. Same, but worse with supplies - if there is no even remotely reliable way to supply the troops - they would stand all too real risk of being surrounded and destroyed.

Thats my two cents about the corridor.