Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 622093 times)

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Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3555 on: May 07, 2014, 01:51:45 pm »
0
Panos and I doesnt share much opinions except prejudice on how badly the anti-UKR/EU informations are shunned  :) 



What I meant with Maidan comparison was that the personal opinion of whether you think such unrest is justified or not, has actually 0 influence on if it will rage on or dies off.

We are mere spectators, like Leshma rightly said.
I would concede our words have some impacts, and as Segd said the information war is one of the tool to further the interest of one party over the other, so maybe what we are saying here have an influence, but a very weak one.

Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3556 on: May 07, 2014, 03:01:55 pm »
0
Panos and I doesnt share much opinions except prejudice on how badly the anti-UKR/EU informations are shunned  :) 



What I meant with Maidan comparison was that the personal opinion of whether you think such unrest is justified or not, has actually 0 influence on if it will rage on or dies off.

We are mere spectators, like Leshma rightly said.
I would concede our words have some impacts, and as Segd said the information war is one of the tool to further the interest of one party over the other, so maybe what we are saying here have an influence, but a very weak one.
THIS is where either your ignorance or a semi-conscious choice to be a sheep comes out. If it were as you say, if all you could do is watch and post on forums - then yes, you would be right. But its simply not the case. When people are fed up enough - they start changing things. You can (and I sincerely believe you will) find a million+ reasons to avoid even trying to do a damn thing or you can make up your mind based on the info you have and act upon it. Join a friggin protest in front of russian embassy, call BS on your politicians who are willing to sell russians modern warships, there is a BUNCH of things you can do, IF YOU CHOOSE TO. And yes - propaganda is good at tricking people, but no - you don't have to accept it.

On the other hand... fuck it, what am I writing here. If one is willing to give the same weight of credibility to putlers media as to 90% of remaining worlds media... IMO you need help, some professional help preferably. I just cant be more polite about this, sorry  :rolleyes:

Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3557 on: May 07, 2014, 03:09:22 pm »
+2
Ok. I'll explain it. First of all: I've said it like 100 times here in the thread that I'm ethnically Russian. I have Russian name, Russian surname, my mother had Russian surname as well.

Second: about pro-Russian protesters entrapping their people. I meant what I said. When an aggressive part of pro-Russian protesters simply ran away and vanished in the centre of the city they called to the camp (which is like 5km away from the place of the initial clash). One of camp leaders told pro-Russians in the camp to take that building nearby, barricade all doors/floors and get ready to siege. Smarter people didn't listen and just walked away. That explains why there were not that many people as usually in the camp. Camp was completely abandoned, they even left some Molotov cocktails/shields and etc. So tell me now how isn't it "entrapping" when they give such orders to their men? What was the purpose of taking that building? Once pro-Ukrainians came, pro-Russians were already waiting for them on the roof of that building with cocktails. Also if anyone was in Odessa and saw that building then he would understand that it's impossible to die there because of Molotov cocktails. That is a large separate multi-level building. I don't even try to find any excuses to actions of those who were beating saved people to death (yes, there were such bastards, there is nothing to hide, they try to excuse themselves with a reason that their friends got killed by guns of pro-Russians that day), there were also people who were actually saving them.

About toxic substances. It's an official announcement of SBU. These are not mine words and I hate conspiracy shit. But in this particular case I tend to believe as corpses really looked strange (completely burnt heads with untouched clothes) and most of dead people there died because of "gas intoxication", that's an official conclusion of coroners from Odessa.

To sum up: there are always bastards and regular people on both sides. I've never said that everyone who supports Russia is a terrorist or everyone who supports Ukraine is a saint angel. There're borders everywhere, once you take a gun and shoot - you're a terrorist, once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi. What's difficult about it?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:13:14 pm by DaveUKR »

Offline Armpit_Sweat

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3558 on: May 07, 2014, 03:19:34 pm »
+1
To sum up: there are always bastards and regular people on both sides. I've never said that everyone who supports Russia is a terrorist or everyone who supports Ukraine is a saint angel. There're borders everywhere, once you take a gun and shoot - you're a terrorist, once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi. What's difficult about it?

+1

Personally, I am completely satisfied with this.
I was afraid that you lost your marbles a little, with all the crazy stuff going on around :)
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Offline Butan

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3559 on: May 07, 2014, 03:38:30 pm »
0
(click to show/hide)

Forgive me, I though seeing your second last post that you were mind-ready to have a serene discussion. I will stop to attempt any with you until you show some more serious signs.






Second: about pro-Russian protesters entrapping their people. I meant what I said. When an aggressive part of pro-Russian protesters simply ran away and vanished in the centre of the city they called to the camp (which is like 5km away from the place of the initial clash). One of camp leaders told pro-Russians in the camp to take that building nearby, barricade all doors/floors and get ready to siege. Smarter people didn't listen and just walked away. That explains why there were not that many people as usually in the camp. Camp was completely abandoned, they even left some Molotov cocktails/shields and etc. So tell me now how isn't it "entrapping" when they give such orders to their men? What was the purpose of taking that building? Once pro-Ukrainians came, pro-Russians were already waiting for them on the roof of that building with cocktails. Also if anyone was in Odessa and saw that building then he would understand that it's impossible to die there because of Molotov cocktails. That is a large separate multi-level building. I don't even try to find any excuses to actions of those who were beating saved people to death (yes, there were such bastards, there is nothing to hide, they try to excuse themselves with a reason that their friends got killed by guns of pro-Russians that day), there were also people who were actually saving them.

Its always vastly superior to your first summary, but I still dont see the connexion between going inside a building and wishing those that does to die?
Surely the "tactical" choice of preparing for something in that building can be labelled "not smart" in retrospective, but thats just how it turned out, I dont think its the best argument you can think of right now.

Are you still pushing for a version where shadowy leaders had the objective to die as martyrs and convince unwilling people to follow them in death too, all for the sake of putting bad press on pro-Kiev?




Quote
About toxic substances. It's an official announcement of SBU. These are not mine words and I hate conspiracy shit. But in this particular case I tend to believe as corpses really looked strange (completely burnt heads with untouched clothes) and most of dead people there died because of "gas intoxication", that's an official conclusion of coroners from Odessa.

I'm not going to surprise you if I tell you that expertises from SBU and UKR coroners arent going to convince anyone?  :)
Surely we will have more and more details on that horrible event in the next days, and bits of information coming from UKR/RUS controlled media will be interesting to hear, I'm not going to proclaim that someone did this, someone did that, because we just doesnt know yet.

Whats undebatable is that Ukrainians killed each other, and most of the dying was on the pro-RUS side, which should lead you to understand that those that are pro-RUS are legitimely angry, and should put the pro-UKR to shame and convince the people in the middle that all the violence doesnt come from the big bad evil invaders disguised as ukrainians  :wink:



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« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:44:28 pm by Butan »

Offline Porthos

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3560 on: May 07, 2014, 05:48:36 pm »
-2

These people with Russian and Soviet flags don't deserve any better treatment
once you beat someone for being Russian - you're a nаzi.

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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3561 on: May 07, 2014, 05:56:16 pm »
+2
Going around with Russian and/or Soviet flags in a different country in a provocative manner is not the same as being Russian.

Try again.

Offline Segd

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3562 on: May 07, 2014, 05:59:46 pm »
0
About conspiracy theory that dudes who attacked pro-ukrainians were only provocateurs, not real pro-russians.
Dude in the center:
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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3563 on: May 07, 2014, 06:16:45 pm »
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Its always vastly superior to your first summary, but I still dont see the connexion between going inside a building and wishing those that does to die?
Surely the "tactical" choice of preparing for something in that building can be labelled "not smart" in retrospective, but thats just how it turned out, I dont think its the best argument you can think of right now.
Are you still pushing for a version where shadowy leaders had the objective to die as martyrs and convince unwilling people to follow them in death too, all for the sake of putting bad press on pro-Kiev?

I'm not pushing this version. The thing is that actual leaders or people who controlled the camp didn't go inside the building. Also police found an open box with filters for gas masks in one of the shelters. This is suspicious at least.

Edit: Look at the picture that got posted by Segd. That's just one of the examples of injuries that I was talking. Look, his face is completely burnt while his clothes aren't even touched.

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Even though you took a part of the sentence out of the context, still a poor attempt.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 06:20:08 pm by DaveUKR »

Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3564 on: May 07, 2014, 06:19:44 pm »
0
I failed and posted 2nd message instead of edit  :oops: :cry:

Offline Porthos

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3565 on: May 07, 2014, 06:37:50 pm »
-1
Going around with Russian and/or Soviet flags in a different country in a provocative manner is not the same as being Russian.
Provocative manner? Did you watch the video? Well, let me guess, riding with Russian flag causes the natural reaction in the form of the hammer thrown at you. Or, most likely, they were carrying ammunition or drugs in their cars, and that's why they were attacked. Moreover, these people who attacked that car, they are certainly the legitimate police, and their actions perfectly correspond to the law of Ukraine. So yeah, you're totally right. Sorry.
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3566 on: May 07, 2014, 06:39:52 pm »
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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3567 on: May 07, 2014, 06:49:47 pm »
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That's your type Tovi. 116 killed, Right Sector came in and killed peaceful women with children. Says the guy who can't make a sentence without 10 "bad words", if he got censored half of this video would be "beep-beeeeep Right Sector killed women beep-beeeeeep and children beep". Good that there is no Right Sector in Odessa, it may only exist on paper. What a mythical organization.

Offline Christo

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3568 on: May 07, 2014, 07:06:59 pm »
0
Provocative manner? Did you watch the video? Well, let me guess, riding with Russian flag causes the natural reaction in the form of the hammer thrown at you. Or, most likely, they were carrying ammunition or drugs in their cars, and that's why they were attacked. Moreover, these people who attacked that car, they are certainly the legitimate police, and their actions perfectly correspond to the law of Ukraine. So yeah, you're totally right. Sorry.

Was this forced loopstart really necessary? From months ago?

Try waving a communist flag and parade in post-soviet bloc countries. We'll see how many people will like that and give a pat to your back. Especially in this situation where ruskies are clearly creating tension with Crimea, if we go back in time to march, going in there with USSR themed stuff is foolishly provocative.

Anyway you kind of twisted that post, not acceptable.
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #3569 on: May 07, 2014, 08:44:17 pm »
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That's your type Tovi. 116 killed, Right Sector came in and killed peaceful women with children. Says the guy who can't make a sentence without 10 "bad words", if he got censored half of this video would be "beep-beeeeep Right Sector killed women beep-beeeeeep and children beep". Good that there is no Right Sector in Odessa, it may only exist on paper. What a mythical organization.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Right Sector doesn't exist ? They can't move from town to town ? This guy was almost killed and all you can say is "he can't make a sentence without 10 bad words"...
What is your opinion about Pravy Sektor exactly ?

An european deputy (from Latvia I think) ask to class Pravy Sektor as Terrorist Organisation. At least, some europeans have there heads on their shoulders.
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