Poll

Will Putin command further invasion of Ukraine:

He will and he should, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will, but he should not, because <random witty/boring reason>
He will not, because <random witty/boring reason>
Who is mister Putin?

Author Topic: Meanwhile in Ukraine  (Read 624932 times)

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Offline Kafein

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4425 on: June 25, 2014, 10:30:23 am »
0
In democratic countries, the leader tends to be less important than the legislative assembly, even though the leader gets all the media attention.

Offline Porthos

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4426 on: June 25, 2014, 11:07:35 am »
+1
In democratic countries, the leader tends to be less important than the legislative assembly, even though the leader gets all the media attention.
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.
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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4427 on: June 25, 2014, 03:25:56 pm »
0
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.
Quite typical. So what you are basically saying "we need a strong hand to rule us, because we are sheep and too much corruption". You, your neighbor and your friend is where corruption AND where tolerance for corruption begins. It is there, where the voice asking for change and decency of government starts (and ends in a bottle of vodka most likely). And trying to find excuses in this case is like trying to wash your muddy ex-white jacked in a puddle.

Funny thing is - when your brother slav nation TRIES to change something - you suddenly approve by 80% of annexing part of their country and dragging them back to the mud where you are stuck. Way to go... Mind you - I don't say Ukraine succeeded or anything just yet, but even attempting this is positive action, while there is a bunch of sheep over the border, who "need a strong ruler who is NOT a dictator to help them gradually learn to be a democracy..."</irony>.

That is cheap and would be funny, if it wasn't sad.

Offline sF_Guardian

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4428 on: June 25, 2014, 03:40:02 pm »
0
Yes, but please keep in mind that here in Russia our legislative authorities is joke. If somehow they would have a real power today, they would have turn our lives in hell in pursuit of populism and support of the electorate. Our difference is that your political system has evolved over the centuries. It come to today's form as a result of natural changes, different improvements and influences. While our system was ruined first time in 1917, and went down in a completely different way after that. And then in late 80s-early 90s our "alternative" system was broken again and replaced with the imitation of the democratic system. It was an imitation not because it was intention to give people a false visibility of freedom and democracy just to fool them somehow, no. Our leaders of 90's were believed in the ideals of the freedom and democracy as well as common people were, but since no one had any idea of what REAL, NATURAL democracy is - so the whole our democracy has become just a decoration, replica, imitation. So now we are living a little more than 20 years with our "democratic" system - and there's no surprise that our democracy is complete bullshit.

I'm sorry to disappoint you but demacracy isn't natural at all.
I don't want to give a feedback to molly neither i want to ban him,I wanted to give advise high authorities to take his admin rights.Panos you monkey wrench where would u put this topic enlighten me you cancer fuck.

Offline Herezy92

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4429 on: June 25, 2014, 03:43:10 pm »
+3
[H]ello !

FrogLoveHere !

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Bye !

Offline Tibe

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4430 on: June 25, 2014, 03:48:10 pm »
0
In russia dictator dont need a legal death penalty, fbr just poison vodka ((
But to be honest iam fully support Putin's command like Shoigu, Churkin, Lavrov.
In Russia still too much bribery, but it is not possible to change it in two or three years cos it was common shit for like 15 years. We often work with government officials from different towns commitets, and for the last five years they strongly pressed. So now they afraid of taking bribes ((
and I would like to be able to remove politicians from office who offering: create  Russian internet Cheburashka, fine / forced to serve in the army of women who did not give birth after 25,
but even now it much better here than in democratic Ukrain  :twisted:

I suppose I do get it. It is hard to get fully democratic in Russia, I can somewhat respect that. But keep that stuff in your country. What I do not understand however is why do shitheads like Lavrov and Putin dick their neibhours so much? Why is their foreign policy so damn hostile towards countries that would probably never pose a threat to them anyway? I dont get why is it so neccessary for them to be so damn agressive. This "be nice to russians outside of Russia or we will invade your ass" statement Putin placed a few days ago is completely idiotic. If anything it makes life for russians in other countries even harder. NATO didnt make Russia its enemy, Russia made it its enemy. Pretty sure most eastern-EUs dont even want to be in nato, but its really the only way to make sure that they dont get invaded by Russia.

I cant really say much for the domestic policy during Putins rule, since yea, im not russian so I dont know about it, but his foreign policy is complete shit. I think really, last time russians where this unpopular, USSR still exsisted.

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4431 on: June 25, 2014, 08:58:10 pm »
0
A democratic leader need a strong mind, not a strong police force.
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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4432 on: June 25, 2014, 09:49:22 pm »
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A democratic leader need a strong mind, not a strong police force.
And putler is which exactly?

Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4433 on: June 25, 2014, 10:09:37 pm »
-4
About genocide occuring in Ukraine (VO+ french ) :


The Kiev propaganda (second part) is really disgusting. It sounds like Vichy in 1944.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:16:20 pm by Tovi »
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Offline Vovka

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4434 on: June 25, 2014, 10:59:06 pm »
0
About genocide occuring in Ukraine (VO+ french ) :
The Kiev propaganda (second part) is really disgusting. It sounds like Vichy in 1944.
i think its not a kiev prapoganda , just reporter is  a stupid chick. And there is no refugees, it is a natural migration of workers, according to ua media
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Offline Tovi

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4435 on: June 25, 2014, 11:11:45 pm »
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Does someone could translate this ?




We know how this shit ends :


« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 11:19:55 pm by Tovi »
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Offline Porthos

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4436 on: June 26, 2014, 04:53:21 am »
+14
So what you are basically saying "we need a strong hand to rule us, because we are sheep and too much corruption".
Well, I don't know where from you have got that thing, I can't find in my text anything connected with corruption, sheep or the will for strong hand. In my text I only tried to explain why I think our political system came to the current current crappy condition. And also why our legislative assembly is joke. It is joke 'cos our legislators is bunch of morons, whose suggestions are nothing but an over-populistic bullshit. And because they all are represent the same four parties (it would be appropriate to call them "fractions of shit" instead of "parties").
(click to show/hide)

I'm sorry to disappoint you but demacracy isn't natural at all.
I don't quite understand what's your point, but anyway I was speaking about the WAY of how democracy appeared in Russia. It's appeared in non natural way. I remember I was reading the memoirs of some members of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia". And they were mentioned that none of them had any idea of what they should actually do. So most of their "congresses" were more like shit talk about anything but nothing in the end. And that's even funny 'cos at the same time it was the period in our history when "The Supreme Soviet of Russia" (which was the part of "The Congress of people's deputies of Russia") somehow was the last actually weighty legislative organ. But then our "grand democrat" Yeltzin just came and dispersed them with the tanks:
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Since then we have only one real power in our country - presidential power.

And as for Ukraine, I think that Putin is became a hostage situation. I mean, if you imagine for a second that tomorrow Putin will sign a decree, that the Russian armed forces must came to the aid of the Ukrainian armed forces and then they together will fight against the Donetsk and Lugans People's Republic... Then Putin would be found killed within five minutes after this decree. Because people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels. And even now, when he is trying to demonstrate that he is not supporting them, some "patriots" already accuse him of "cowardice". So if now he will go against his own propaganda - people here in Russia will hate him with the passion. And the second thing - he obviously would be glad to destabilize Ukraine, because if Ukraine will succeed, and their life will be better than life in Russia, then, you know, his days as the president will end once and forever. He would be rather glad to hear something like this:
In Russia still too much bribery...but even now it much better here than in democratic Ukrain  :twisted:
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Offline Kuujis

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4437 on: June 26, 2014, 08:58:43 am »
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(click to show/hide)
Well written, even if not a lot of new.

"Now tell me, who would you choose?" - NONE. IF every available choice sucks - then there surely is a vacuum, which could be filled. Yet - you can't fill it, because you have a strong leader, who controls the media (and thus - the buckets of shit, that get spilled on everyone), who controls the police/special services (and thus - everyone, to whom the shit does not stick - gets a chance at a legendary "tyshina" prisons, where guys suffering from diabetes don't get insulin and noone gets prosecuted for that). So tell me - how do you call a populace, who are ok with such state of things? I call them sheep. There was a bunch of similar sheep in Ukraine, who could not suffer any longer. Now your putler and his media call them fasczzscists and banderoses and what not. And 80% of aforementioned sheep support that. So tell me - what better name, than sheep befit such a populace?

"Because people here in Russia literally asking him to defend DNR and LNR rebels" - people are made to believe, that there is someone to be defended agains someone. Which was bullshit, until putler and his media started stirring up a whole bunch of crap in Ukraine. Starting with maidan, continuing with Crimea, and then inciting AND supporting separatist bullshit in eastern Ukraine. If he was mistaken about Ukraine - why not allow people to elect another president after his term ends?

The point I want to make, and I will sound like a broken audio here, its YOUR FUCKING WILLINGNESS to say NO to this bullshit, but you do not. If you consider current treatment of Ukraine by russia a friendly one, which is what putler is declarating, then I would rather have russia as enemy and would know that openly. 

Oh, ant @Tovi - could you please look for those press releases by russian officials citing hundreds of thousands crossing into russia as refugees? That would surely help bolstering your POV. Because majority of refugees up until serious shit hit eastern Ukraine were the Tatars from Crimea, where they were "reintegrated" (or what was that official word used?). You should quit putlers media, its bad for your brain.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4438 on: June 26, 2014, 10:52:58 am »
+1
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Well written and informative, thanks.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Meanwhile in Ukraine
« Reply #4439 on: June 26, 2014, 02:31:02 pm »
+1
Very good post Porthos, thanks!

The media element is always interesting. Also from western perspective. Way I see it it is a mostly a huge flock of sheep that is hard to turn around, and the political leadership can only makes moves inside their current perspective. This makes it so actual decisions takes a long time, because leaders must first turn and prepare the media, before they can implement changes.

To take a recent example:

In i.ex Syria, I'm pretty sure US intelligence have known for a very long time that the Rebels are now mostly crazy jihadists, and it would be better to support Assad. Problem is that they had already painted him black, and to turn the whole chemical weapons thing required a massive campaign and lots of confusion among US media.. "What are we supposed to think now??"

Same in Russia. The (Russian)media becomes involved to such a degree, that even if Putin don't think it's worth it to annex Donetsk, he will have to fight his own propaganda machine first.

Atm though, I think the Russian strategy is 2 sided. Time is on Putin's side, Ukraine is being punished for trying to leave the family, and Putin is intending to drain as much resources as possible from them. He wants to have Ukraine in a desperate position before talking/normalizing relations. IF the rebels would be more successful, he can also consider eventually annexing Donetsk, probably on the pretext of protecting civilians. Anyway, now he just gives them weapons and probably lots black ops+mercenaries..

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