So, was the throwing lance nerfed with this recent wpf change?

[MURDERTRON]

Still losing a healthy chunk of wpf, which is needed for polearm wpf.  The requirement change means you need 14 less wpf to have the same effective wpf that you had before, but with only 6wm you're going to have less wpf.  Meanwhile the average wpf of other builds will be going up.  So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.

I gave up my polearm/throwing/cav build because I would not be effective in melee anymore.

[Tovi]

My old build :
24/15
1h : 100     thr : 132
Ps 8      sh  5
If 0       ath  5
cav 5    PT 7
WM 5

Actual build :

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So, i loose some HP and PS, I gain Ath and Shield. I loose some cav too.
But with less throwing wpf I can wear some bigger armors.
It's ok for me but i'm level 34

[Boerenlater]

I gave up on throwing lances/hoplite hybrid since the patch. Was imo not useful anymore at lvl 32.

[Vermilion]

Level: 31

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Health Points: 56
Weapon Proficiency Points: 6

Strength: 21
Agility: 18

One Handed: 108
Throwing: 113

Power Strike: 7
Athletics: 6
Power Throw: 7
Weapon Master: 6

looks fine according to me.

That's the build I picked if I am going to keep the 7 PT (still haven't decided tho) (slightly different wpf distribution also but only by a couple points).

At the end of the day I know it doesn't really matter, a few extra or less points in WPF doesn't make that much of a difference. However, it does make a mental difference and throwing already has the lowest accuracy. IMO it would be better to rebalance throwing with a bit less damage and a bit more accuracy rather than trying to continue changing the WPF formula.

I think the melee hybrid bonus was the best thing about the WPF change. It's a shame throwing was left out of the bonus but at least we got a PT requirement reduction to balance the loss in WPF.
It's now just a mental game of getting your head around lowering your throwing numeral WPF from before while keeping the same in game accuracy.

[Lt_Anders]

Well, you can go hybrid(100/90 or 97/97). I played with the numbers and you're not gimped to to badly.

And if what they said about WPF and the PT subtracting from the WPF(and then armor) to give you actual wpf...

But then, once again, lower tier throwing is still better.(by 11 free points of wpf!)

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Still, why is it only the ranged classes that have this penalty, they need to put it on all classes

So, can someone tell me the damage i would get from 85 wpf in throwing with lances. If the wpf subtraction is correct, that'd mean that i'm losing 15% damage because i have the minimum and once you subtract it, the wpf Bonus (that equation melee gets for damage it's the same here to right?) is at 0.

IE (WPF*0.01*.15+0.85) damage bonus. the WPF part would be 0 thus damage would be 0.85 or 85% of what it actually is.

[MURDERTRON]

Seems odd that tydeus says he wants thrower especially to be able to melee and then provided no provisions for them.  Why not give throwing the same melee wpf synergy?

[IG_Saint]

Before 13*PT it substracted from your wpf. Now 11*PT.

Ah ok then, I always assumed it was just a minimum wpf needed, not an actual subtraction. Nevermind then, all is well.

[Tydeus]

Still losing a healthy chunk of wpf, which is needed for polearm wpf.  The requirement change means you need 14 less wpf to have the same effective wpf that you had before, but with only 6wm you're going to have less wpf.  Meanwhile the average wpf of other builds will be going up.  So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.

I gave up my polearm/throwing/cav build because I would not be effective in melee anymore.

Before the patch my throwing lancer was 21/18 with 140 throwing and 89 polearm, now 21/18 135/76 is the best I can do. Slight nerf so, a point or 2 in accuracy/speed (for throwing, I wouldn't touch the melee side) would seem a fair enough buff to compensate the lower maximum wpf.

So yes, throwing lance hybrid did get nerfed.  It's all about relativity, and it sometimes forget that Tydeus forgets that.

14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.

[Lt_Anders]

14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.

but you have to convert 8 skill points and you use 13 for just that. so 21/31 leaving you 10 points left(at level 30.)

Not at ALL "relatively effective." In fact, only a pure thrower wins, in this case because he can afford it to have only 4 ps with max ath.

You've effectively made throwing lance a lvl 31 build to use it at all remotely well.

You shouldn't be "forced" to have to spend 21 skill points or be a high enough level to use a weapon that has exactly 4 uses.(if maxed)

[Jarlek]

Maybe make throwing wpf gain same bonuses from other profiencies as melee does.
-snip-

Hey! Thief!

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-snip-
My suggestion? Make it so throwing wpf add to the melee wpf synergy.

Great Minds and thinking alike, I guess

[MURDERTRON]

Anders, you of course, are not forced to use 4 throwing lances.  However, doing anything else would be stupid and actually be more expensive, since you can never pay two repairs on the same item in the same round.

14 less to have the same, which is a buff. That in mind, currently with 21/18 you can do 126/92 In the case of throwing, this amounts to the same throwing effectiveness and 3 more melee wpf than before. Meaning there was no nerf what-so-ever. Indeed relative effectiveness has a place in balance, but considering the differences we're talking about, I'm jut not so eager to throw around words like nerf, buff, overpowered and underpowered as you.

It was a nerf, because we're no longer getting high level freebie WPF.  At 33, I had 111 pole and 130 throwing, 21/18 builds.  Post patch, I could only get something like 105/110.  That is a nerf, my friend, no matter how you cut it.

[Tydeus]

Anders, you of course, are not forced to use 4 throwing lances.  However, doing anything else would be stupid and actually be more expensive, since you can never pay two repairs on the same item in the same round.

It was a nerf, because we're no longer getting high level freebie WPF.  At 33, I had 111 pole and 130 throwing, 21/18 builds.  Post patch, I could only get something like 105/110.  That is a nerf, my friend, no matter how you cut it.

That's not a nerf to throwing lances, that's a nerf to people with 5/6 WM that are above level 30, meaning it's not weapon specific. Although it may affect throwing lances more often than other weapons, it's build specific. A weapon nerf would be a nerf to 100% of the builds that use the weapon, but that's not the case.

How you choose to talk about something influences how you(and others) end up thinking about it.

[Vermilion]

Why is it that Throwing Lances have the highest strength requirement in the game?

Throwing: Throwing Lances - 21
Bow: Long Bow - 18
XBow: Arbalest - 15
One Hand: Iron War Axe - 16
Two Hand: Great Maul - 20
Polearm: Long Maul - 18
Head Armor: Weimar Helmet - 16
Body Armor: Milanese Plate - 16
Hand Armor: Heavy Gauntlets -18
Leg Armor: Black Greaves -15

Except the Great Maul at  20 strengh, with 18 strength you can use every other weapon and piece of armor with a strength requirement (with the obvious exception of needing power draw/powerthrow, not just the strength).

Maybe the Great Maul and throwing lances requirement should be reduced to 18 so they fit in with the rest of the gear. Either that or the less favorable, raise the strength requirement of other items especially plate armor, long maul and arbalest.

[Mendro]

The fun with throwing lance is pure thrower don't use them a lot (except 1 or 2 cavs throwers) cause of low ammo. We don't spend 7 or more points in PT if it's just for playing throwers 1 minutes.

Add something like "Light throwing lance" with less requirement and less damage could be nice for hybrid.

[San]

Raising the requirements of heavy gear sounds more favorable to me, at least for consistency's sake.