Author Topic: Thoughts on Religion and the State  (Read 23629 times)

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Offline KingBread

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #330 on: December 07, 2013, 04:51:54 pm »
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You are misunderstood because you only make claims without providing either examples or steps that could be reproduced to arrive at the same conclusions.
yes i dont have any if you deny fact that bible says dont kill and killing is against law. I lack knowledge from law history this is true and im founding my opinion on some authorities (authorities on law history) and i do believe there might be some others that would think diffrent but in my experience most people that know stuff about law can agree on statement that christian morality is reflected by civil law.

No, the values aren't reflected in modern law. Laws would be the same even if Christianity had never existed.

So how is this logical and how will you provide us/me with evidence to this statement ?
 
Again, that has nothing to do with Christianity. Every society needs said laws to function. Hunter gatherer tribes that have never heard of Christianity don't go around killing each other and stealing stuff... Because a community can't work like that.
No not every society works like this, most yes but definitelly not all. There is huge variety of moral ideals among diffrent cultures that from cultures that find woman having many housbands very moral, hight prestige  to cultures that find eating other people morally correct.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #331 on: December 07, 2013, 04:59:46 pm »
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It is logical because groups do not work if you are allowed to kill who you please. There has never existed a society where murder is fine and we wouldn't have evolved like that for the same reason. Your turn.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #332 on: December 07, 2013, 05:08:46 pm »
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Yeah, modern day laws and morals have nothing to do with Christianity.

Well, that's true, but modern christianity is also nothing like what Jesus would have wanted. All christians are guilty of what, in their view, is a sin: They use Christ's name in vain, when they call themselves Christians.

Most modern laws are about the protection of property. This alone shows how distant they are from Christianity:

Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth."

Here we see that the way we all are today: with our new iphones, cars and jobs. We could NOT be further from Christianity.

But, let's be honest, there is no God, not even a single lonely one, has never been, and will never be. My personal faith is weak, because it is faith in human decency. It is shattered and broken again and again. But I dont worship any imaginary overlords. I have faith that eventually we will finally ruin ourselves financially and we can dismantle this disgusting greed based society we have.

But, let's be honest, most of you are happy enough with your bread and circuses.


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« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 05:12:24 pm by BlindGuy »
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Offline KingBread

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #333 on: December 07, 2013, 05:19:10 pm »
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It is logical because groups do not work if you are allowed to kill who you please. There has never existed a society where murder is fine and we wouldn't have evolved like that for the same reason. Your turn.
No society ever said that murdering Jews is ok ? What more they have a lot of earnings from this and become "stronger" in some economic and military aspects. Touche



Also predicting your next move i say in advance you can't put strickt walls of who is within society and who is not. (as Jews were part of German society for hundreds of years)
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Offline [ptx]

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #334 on: December 07, 2013, 05:25:40 pm »
+1
Our current laws are a direct evolution of the laws and traditions that have existed in Europe since antiquity, far older than Christianity. If anything, Christianity is influenced by our laws and culture, not vice versa.

Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #335 on: December 07, 2013, 05:26:36 pm »
+1
No society ever said that murdering Jews is ok ? What more they have a lot of earnings from this and become "stronger" in some economic and military aspects. Touche



Also predicting your next move i say in advance you can't put strickt walls of who is within society and who is not. (as Jews were part of German society for hundreds of years)
What are you talking about?
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #336 on: December 07, 2013, 05:45:19 pm »
+1
Murdering anyone is wrong. Adol.f Hit.ler (dont try to censor a man's name, he is NOT LORD VOLDEMORT, HE WHO MUST NOT BE NAMED or some shit, he was just an insane man.) was insane, but:

 Throughout the thousands of years of the Jewish diaspora, the jews always kept stating that THEY were God's chosen people and noone else. They also always made insular societies, and were renowned for being the best at avoiding taxation of any sort. They never made their home more important than their faith, and never stopped proclaiming their superiority.

Now, Im not sure, but I'm pretty sure that would piss ME off, if you came to my house, avoided paying rent, and continually told me you were so much better than me....

They Jewish ppl have always been my peeve. WHO else but Israel can napalm UN peacekeepers without anyone raising an eyebrow? WHO else states that all the countries around them belong to them by god's decree?

So let's not use an example where a Dictator used his power to kill people he honestly believed were ruining his country. H!tler really believed what he was doing was right. And, wrong as he was, if he HAD managed to kill EVERY single jew, there would be much less poverty and a LOT less bloodshed today.

BEFORE anyone starts calling me a racist: Im not racist, I hate all religious believers at some level. But the jewish state of israel I especially dislike, since they do w/e they want and murder whoever they want, all justified because they were mistreated in the past. BUT, even tho I discriminate against Jews, I'm not a rascist: NOONE is jewish by birth, despite what H!tler thought, Jewish is NOT a race, it is a religion by choice.

EDIT: had to put crap in an austrian man's name because forum admin's are children.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 05:50:33 pm by BlindGuy »
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Offline Falka

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #337 on: December 07, 2013, 06:20:42 pm »
+1
And almost all of people here have to admit that christianity (if you live in europe or north america) is a foundation of everyday life cos its reflected in law you follow everyday. So unless you are sociopath you are christian at some point in my view cos christianity is also a model of morality.

for me christian is somebody who follow christian morality.

Christian morality has very little in common with god's words written in bible. Especially old testament's morality for modern humans is unacceptable in large part. The problem is most of christians never read bible, so they don't know shit about their own belief and amazing stories written by god's spokers.

Quote
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”


In the eyes of god Lot was the only rightheous man in sodoma and he gave his virgin daughters to mob so that they could rape them... Good man, good dad, no doubt about it :P

Quote
Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.

I always wonder why pedopriests don't tell such stories in churches, I'm sure there would be many more people...  :P

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Offline Falka

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #338 on: December 07, 2013, 06:26:19 pm »
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There is huge variety of moral ideals among diffrent cultures that from cultures that find woman having many housbands very moral, hight prestige  to cultures that find eating other people morally correct.

There's also repeatedly said in bible that homosexuals should be killed. And guess what, we don't kill gays...  :P

No society ever said that murdering Jews is ok ?

Ofc ado.lf is also responsible for massacres of jews in medieaval, church and christiatnity had nothing to do with that...

« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 06:31:24 pm by Falka »
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Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #339 on: December 07, 2013, 06:38:20 pm »
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His logic fails every step of the way. First off, N. Germany was a relatively modern country, so by Bread's logic its laws should have been influenced by Christianity too, especially considering their laws in general weren't that different from ours. Second, killing anyone you wanted was not legal in N. Germany. Jews were considered the enemy, they were outlaws. All countries today also allow the killing of enemies. And there are plenty of examples of The Good Guys killing people, even children, in the Bible, despite the "don't kill" commandment. Bread couldn't have picked a worse example if he'd have tried.
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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #340 on: December 07, 2013, 06:39:12 pm »
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Some laws are obviously based off Christianity in most western societies (marriage laws for example), but laws against murder and theft are more common sense in any state that seeks to survive and have nothing to do with religion. There's a reason no society endorses theft or murder for no reason, it is preserving itself, not adhering to whatever some book random assholes shat up over a thousand years ago.
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Offline Xant

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #341 on: December 07, 2013, 06:41:11 pm »
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Which marriage laws? Honest question; they might. But there are non-religious reasons for strict monogamy as well.
Meaning lies as much
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as in the Haiku.

Offline [ptx]

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #342 on: December 07, 2013, 06:45:42 pm »
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Marriage existed before Christianity. I'm quite sure that neither ancient greeks nor romans could have more than one wife.

Offline Falka

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #343 on: December 07, 2013, 06:50:02 pm »
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Marriage existed before Christianity. I'm quite sure that neither ancient greeks nor romans could have more than one wife.

Quote
I have demonstrated that monogamy is not commanded in the
Bible, and that it is not the doctrine of Christianity. I
shall now account for its origin, by proving that it is the
joint offspring of paganism and Romanism. The social system
of European monogamy is proved to be derived from the ancient
Greeks and Romans (especially from the latter), by the early
histories of the nations of Europe, and by an uninterrupted
descent of traditional customs from them to our own times. It
is one of those pagan abominations which we have inherited,
which the Roman Church has sanctioned and confirmed, and from
which we find it so difficult to emancipate ourselves.
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Offline BlindGuy

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Re: Thoughts on Religion and the State
« Reply #344 on: December 07, 2013, 08:52:24 pm »
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