WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)

[DaveUKR]

My personal concern is about ranged. So with these changes you also have to change stats for all ranged weapons as such wpf boost will make all of them much more powerful than now.

[San]

You could always add polearm proficiency to diversify your build as well. That way you have more options to play if you ever get bored of 1h and gives a cav counter as well.

Been there, done that:

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Cav was fun, but I started to miss infantry fighting. Whenever I was infantry, I was just jealous of the pure builds and wanted a change. I'm glad I made that change even at a high cost.

3agi builds are pretty terrible, but 9+agi isn't that bad at all. It's still a sizable nerf, though.

Funny how an extra 20 wpf for 9 WM, and 10 wpf less for 5 WM Hybrid is consider by you to be "reworking the entire game in the opposite direction". Yes, your full STR stacker 36/3 build will be slower, with less wpf. And ? Is it completely impossible ? No. Has hard as a 3/36 build ? Depends.

I'll still like to see additional changes for STR requirements for armor (going to 21 str for some of the higher stuff for example), but that's another matter, and i deeply await the next patch. NErf rondel daggers, longsword speed, awlpike speed, and buff WM while removing free wpf. It's like an early christmas present.

Surprisingly, small wpf changes are pretty huge. It's just that after armor mitigation, 1WM at the moment only gives you like 5-6 points. Even for fast weapons, even 14wpf is similar to an increase in 1 weapon speed. 20wpf is also almost half of 1PS + 3strength of damage. It's changing 'fast' to 'blazingly fast.' 9WM is also a good point before diminishing returns kicks in (although 10WM is also pretty dang enticing). In addition, the wpf difference between builds is even larger, so it means that pure builds with higher agi can spam more easily than they can currently.

Even though unsaid, 200wpf feels like some legendary number that shouldn't be reached without a lot of sacrifices.

[Elindor]

I've seen a lot of people seconding my sentiment (that we should definitely reduce the speed of LOW speed stat users, but not necessarily increase the speed of HIGH speed stat users at the same time)...and wanted to add something...

...my concerns are similar to what others have said about super agi w/ fast weapons creating situations which are bad for general gameplay.  One thing I wanted to add is that the faster combat becomes, the more the differences between players pings becomes a factor.  Don't get me wrong, I like fast combat, but if you have 70-80 ping now it's already hard to fight a decently fast player with lets say 10-30 ping, even if the skill levels are similar. 

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On a different note - when are we expecting this to be implemented?

[HarryCrumb]

In regards to the respec allowed for skill points, will we be able to swap out 12 skill points from our current builds as well as 6 STR? Do those skill points need to come from STR based skills? I'm assuming the respec specifics aren't fully decided but it would be great if you (Tydeus) would give us a few realistic possibilities for respecs that you believe chadz would approve, so we could give our input on what we would prefer.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Players that have their main as 36-3 or other obscene strength builds will simply use a 30/33-12 strength build now, which is more effective than a 36-3 build regardless of any change.

And that's just fine.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Just nuke every account to 0 and then give everyone three loom points.

Problem solved wooooo.

After looking at the number, it still looks like an agility heavy build is going to be inferior to a stranth heavy build. I'll reserve me abuse for a latter date however.

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Think I might have to bring old throwy mc fuck face out of retirement.

9-30 shall be a right shit with +3 throwing daggers

I've seen a lot of people seconding my sentiment (that we should definitely reduce the speed of LOW speed stat users, but not necessarily increase the speed of HIGH speed stat users at the same time)...and wanted to add something...

...my concerns are similar to what others have said about super agi w/ fast weapons creating situations which are bad for general gameplay.  One thing I wanted to add is that the faster combat becomes, the more the differences between players pings becomes a factor.  Don't get me wrong, I like fast combat, but if you have 70-80 ping now it's already hard to fight a decently fast player with lets say 10-30 ping, even if the skill levels are similar. 

--

On a different note - when are we expecting this to be implemented?

Tots agree.

It's really the biggest factor.

Max speed should still allow for just above average reaction times. As in the weapon shouldn't be able to spam at a speed that is much greater than the average human reaction time.

If you do that then the skill is more than just point and click reaction timing. It's about thinking beyond the next move and predicting the opponents attack and patterns.

If you however go the other way you also lose all the edginess and the meta of the combat.

The idea of slowing weapons down instead of speeding others up is a very valid one.

Let the grand experiments begin!

Start with 2h >

[Elindor]

Btw, thanks for restoring overtime on siege in last patch

Wait...what?
Do you mean restoring as in removing it or adding it?

Overtime came back on NA2 for a day or two but now it's gone again!  Is it still there on EU2?
Either way (and sorry this is off topic) - THE PLAYERS WANT OVERTIME (at least from what I've seen)...so leave it in!

[San]

With slow and fast animations, it's easy to have an idea for what attack's going to be used. The people with 70+ ping will barely even be able to see that or respond properly after a block unless they use the fastest available weapons. I think having only a single direction that comes out a tiny bit faster is fine, though.

In general, I believe agi will still have some disadvantages, but specific balanced agi builds around 15-18 strength and 24+agi get a sizable boost. Expect 15/24, 15/27, 18/24, skipping out on IF to get more athletics and weapon master. WM gives great boosts until 10WM. The wpf boost would move 15/18 strength builds to more viable damage values.

I think that right now, the best high level melee is something like 27/18 followed closely by 24/18 high IF = 24/21 low/no IF. After this change, I really can't say for sure. I believe it'll be 21/24, closely followed by 27/18 = 18/27 = 24/21, then 21/21 = 18/24 = 24/18 = 15/27 = high strength builds 9-15 agi.

[Dionysus]

Last time I voted on changes I thought would be great, I ended up thoroughly regretting my decision. So, I'm going to let the smarter folks hash this one out while I sit around drunk because I'm a wine-o.

[Jona]

My only concern with this patch is that weapon proficiency isn't actually being reworked for melee purposes. Everyone knows that you can pick up any random weapon with 1 wpf and still perform decently as long as you are at a skill level where you can block reliably. WM always felt like something that only rewarded someone who dumped 7-8 skill points into it. There is barely any difference felt in the 1-5 or 6 WM ranges when compared to 0WM. Even at 7 or 8 WM with all wpf poured into one weapon type the changes between that and a 0 WM build are minuscule. I have heard that the difference between 0 Wm and 8ish WM is like .75 - 1% faster swings... which amounts to almost nothing. And the damage is negligible compared to having more PS instead.

So with melee wpf being the same after the patch, in that it really gives almost no bonuses, I see no reason for all the QQ from str builds and all the hate/envy for the few agi whores who will be getting even more wpf. My REAL worry is what about ranged? I heard crossbow wpf maxes at ~160... so now any hybrid crossbower will be able to have sufficient points in both crossbow and a melee weapon of their choice. And archers? They will all have super accurate shots. Same for throwers. I only hope that the effects of this buff on all ranged classes will be taken into account.

[Gmnotutoo]

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also buff katana speed and nerf it's damage.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Haha xD oh dev's spend so long not implementing WPF change people have wanted so long, now they decide to implement it, the moment i decide i'm safe to go for 45/3 build xD haha. Oh fate is cruel, and agi-whores gonna spam worse than ever.

Dem feels.....
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...Anyone interested in a gen 16 CD key with multiple looms and a cool banner?

16$ one for every gen yo.

[Brutal]

Alright, this has probably been asked about more than anything else, so here are some examples of what some wpf splits could look like.

8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
170/73
167/84
135/135
135/94/94

5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81
120/62
97/97

versus what we have now

5 WM with 15 Agility could give you 139 wpf in one type or...
110/81  vs   110/113   
120/62  vs   120/102

8 WM with 24 Agility could give you 184 WPF in one type or...
167/84   vs  167/55
135/135  vs  135/130



This is gonna hurt a lot hybrid builds. Kep in mind tha hybrids ussually doesn't have insane agi becuz they are hybrid.
You can see that  even at 8 mw a hybrid get less total wpf he doesn't invest a ridiculous low amount of wpf.

So an archer or an xbower with 21/18 or 18/21 build will have less wpf than he used to have to fight in melee - > so he will fight less in melee ? did you think of that ?

a 21/15 thrower is screwed  120/62   62 wpf in melee, that's sucks !!!

This is some strange adjustement to be honest.
Can't make your formula works but i m sure i could have shown more pertinant example with 18/21 agi.
Can you show what you have acutally entenred into excel ?

I though tihe point was to nerf a little pure strenght build but what your doing is
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really grimping build with less than 9/12 agi read post below for that point
-Nerfing by a lot second competency of balanced build(hybrid and capacity of ranged to fight in melee)
-Buffing high agi build
-Promoting kitting

WPf curve need to be changed but hurting balanced build ? buffing agi ? why alway bring new issues ?

[Tretter]

Yall make me log in for this shit.

So using the formula from *source omitted*:

damage = (1 + 0.08 * PS)(0.85 + 0.0015 * WPF) * BASEDAMAGE + STR / 5

if you are only interested in damage bonus, here is a table of new and old damages for a weapon with base damage 40 (average greatsword damage)

BaseDamage: 40

str	ps	agi	wm	if	wpfold	wpfnew	damold	damnew
36	12	3	0	11	111	20	86.8936	76.192
33	11	6	2	8	123	76	84.3944	79.0928
30	10	9	3	7	130	100	81.24	78
27	9	12	4	6	138	121	78.1216	76.3672
24	8	15	5	5	146	139	74.9264	74.2376
21	7	18	6	4	154	155	71.6544	71.748
18	6	21	7	3	163	170	68.3944	69.016
15	5	24	8	2	172	184	65.048	66.056
12	4	27	9	1	180	198	61.536	62.9616

These are the generic level 30 builds which are most commonly used. As you can see, WPF plays almost no part in the damage calculation, and full str builds are still more than viable under the changes. The major fault with the current system is the insanely low swingspeed increase per wpf (something like .0001 per WPF if i remember correctly? so 200 wpf is 2% increase...) and the fact that STR gives 1 hp per raw stat, and is tied to iron flesh. Neither of these issues are addressed, so I don't know what this change accomplishes.

I will make a note that none of this includes speedbonuses, which I have no idea how to factor in. Also, 27/12 or 30/9 will be the new cheese builds that everyone complains about. 

[Tears of Destiny]

We believe what would be most appropriate is reimbursing something like 6 Strength attributes and however many skill points that amounts to(This is currently the plan).Edit 1: I guess I forgot to state this, but your wpf will be reset.

If this is true, then I'll be one happy camper.