WPP Sum and Cost Formula Rework(Includes WM)

[Huscarlton_Banks]

Combat speed is already set to Medium.

The issue isn't the speed of footwork/projectiles/horses, it's the craziness of feints with speedy weapons on people with 80-100+ ping.

I don't think it'll be that much more of an issue unless they forgo anything heavier than 12-15 adjusted armor weight though.

[Bobthehero]

I think Fasader stole 2/3 of our looms back then.

Actually, I received a free loom point at that time

[Grumbs]

I feel that increasing the speed encourages players to ignore parts of the combat that make the game more skill intensive. If you can simply spam someone to death you will do that rather than employ other skills in the game imo. If people can block well then you often have to switch things up a bit, if its too fast then you go for more cheesy ways to kill people. I would say that blocking should be possible with the fastest weapons for players <~150 ping

At the same time though it shouldn't be too slow. Its a fine line that some 1 handers can get a bit too close too atm

[Teeth]

From playing on NA my problem with high ping is mostly the packet loss, fucking hell the amount of times a hit goes through the correct block when I can't possibly ascribe that to a mere 120 ms delay. It's just seems to wrongly interpret my input all the time. I think catering the entire game to those rare few that play with a 150 ping is not a smart move. At the current point a slight speed up seems in order if you ask me, often I feel like a duel is more of a patience match than anything else. Whoever goes craziest to hit the other guy first because all else fails loses. Those fucking boring duellers who just simply right swing with a Great Long Bardiche win a lot of their duels for a reason.

Ever wondered why ranged and pikes have gotten nerf after nerf when other weapons seem to have been touched much less? It is because as average blocking skill increases, the relative deadliness of weapons that ignore blocks (ranged) or rely on forcing people to block two directions at once (support polearms) increases. The killing rate of a 2h sword continously reduces because people get better at blocking. Remember those archers that backpedalled and blocked with their shitty hammers until help turned up? The longspear from 2010 was ridiculously good compared to what it is now, yet the weapon is still amazing these days. People used to win 15 vs 1's while now even the best player has trouble with any gank unless he has a shit ton of athlethics.

We are getting too good for this game. The age of heroes is over because the skill gap between the best player and the average player has been reduced immensely because almost anyone can block. This turns the game into a game of numbers. Whoever brings the most teammates or the teammates with the longest weapons wins. Bad teambalance or banner stacking becomes all the more of a problem because of this. Speeding the game up will counter-act these problems as it increases the kill rate of the individual because people will have more trouble blocking.

[Nehvar]

Attacks frequently going through blocks? Yeah, that sounds like NA alright.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

In general speeding up the game is a bad thing, all it does is shit on people with bad fps or high pings, this patch won't really speed up the game very much though (however it does shit on hybrids, which I dislike). I'll repeat what I've said before, the game needs more shit like nudges, chambers, jumps, weaponstun (the way weaponstun is implemented is however, idiotic) and kicks, not buffing Germans with nice pcs and great internet.

[Thomek]

You are right in many things there Teeth, but at even at 60-70ms some enemies become nasty because of ping difference.

I can see us speeding the game up a tiny bit, without the fastest weapons we have getting any faster. Some extreme builds are already half-broken because of swingspeed issues..  At least from my perspective of 40ish ping.

So sure, make it a bit faster, but keep the fastest weapons we have where they are..  Also what Zlisch said, far from everyone sits on a super-stable internet and modern computers.

[Molly]

Thomek in teamspeak "Got to go mate... Ping is 600 again."   

[San]

If the fastest weapons remain weak, I think it's fine. If you have problems with ping and reacting after a block, you might have to use a fast weapon yourself.

At the speed this game plays, it's much slower than a fighting game and well within normal reaction times. If your connection is so bad that you can't see swings properly, you're going to have problems even against "slow" weapons that turn properly.

[Elindor]

As far as "balancing for pings", catering to 150 pings is a bad idea, as is catering to 20 ping.  I'd say the average ping levels are around 40-60, and that is probably what the game should cater to.

[Kalam]

From playing on NA my problem with high ping is mostly the packet loss, fucking hell the amount of times a hit goes through the correct block when I can't possibly ascribe that to a mere 120 ms delay. It's just seems to wrongly interpret my input all the time. I think catering the entire game to those rare few that play with a 150 ping is not a smart move. At the current point a slight speed up seems in order if you ask me, often I feel like a duel is more of a patience match than anything else. Whoever goes craziest to hit the other guy first because all else fails loses. Those fucking boring duellers who just simply right swing with a Great Long Bardiche win a lot of their duels for a reason.

Ever wondered why ranged and pikes have gotten nerf after nerf when other weapons seem to have been touched much less? It is because as average blocking skill increases, the relative deadliness of weapons that ignore blocks (ranged) or rely on forcing people to block two directions at once (support polearms) increases. The killing rate of a 2h sword continously reduces because people get better at blocking. Remember those archers that backpedalled and blocked with their shitty hammers until help turned up? The longspear from 2010 was ridiculously good compared to what it is now, yet the weapon is still amazing these days. People used to win 15 vs 1's while now even the best player has trouble with any gank unless he has a shit ton of athlethics.

We are getting too good for this game. The age of heroes is over because the skill gap between the best player and the average player has been reduced immensely because almost anyone can block. This turns the game into a game of numbers. Whoever brings the most teammates or the teammates with the longest weapons wins. Bad teambalance or banner stacking becomes all the more of a problem because of this. Speeding the game up will counter-act these problems as it increases the kill rate of the individual because people will have more trouble blocking.

I've advocated slower speeds to lower the bar to new/slow/middle aged players for a long time, but I'm just about ready for a switch back to crazy speeds- mostly because I feel we've got the playerbase we're stuck with already. Also, I'm tired of not wrecking teams.

[Corsair831]

i can't believe that people are actually suggesting that crpg gets slowed down, it's already massively slower than native

why should we make it slower because A - NA players want to play with us and B - people can't block ?!?!?

what is this madness

[Pollux]

In general speeding up the game is a bad thing, all it does is shit on people with bad fps or high pings, this patch won't really speed up the game very much though (however it does shit on hybrids, which I dislike). I'll repeat what I've said before, the game needs more shit like nudges, chambers, jumps, weaponstun (the way weaponstun is implemented is however, idiotic) and kicks, not buffing Germans with nice pcs and great internet.

I agree. Nudge is great, but we also need a way to headbutt our opponent in the balls.

[Thranduil]

Sheesh! I didn't think my comment would garner this much talk and abuse! I only meant it as a suggestion IF the Combat Speed was on FASTEST, which, IMHO, is ridiculous. If the Combat Speed is at Medium, then I would leave it where it is. I really don't think lowering it beyond Medium would help any either. If anything, it would be too sluggish.

i can't believe that people are actually suggesting that crpg gets slowed down, it's already massively slower than native

why should we make it slower because A - NA players want to play with us and B - people can't block ?!?!?

what is this madness

Native is at Medium by default unless you change it, so I think Medium (where it apparently is right now) is where it should be. I don't know what EU servers set their speed to, and I really don't care. I don't play EU. I can't play EU. Too much ping. It's as simple as that.

Also, technologically speaking, right now, most NA players aren't going to play on EU servers and expect great ping and vice versus. And really, I'm not that sure many players care. NA is mostly gonna play NA. Just as EU is gonna mainly play EU. And I'm fine with that. We'll occasionally hop the pond for Strat Battles though. 


It's a tricky business, Frodo, modifying your game. On the one hand, you want character customization. On the other hand, you want balance. The trouble is, you're dealing with humans. We always try to find a way around the system. All I really know is this: I need to hurry up and retire before the forced respec!

[Dooz]

is the effective wpf based on armor weight formula going to change? is the one from the mechanics thread currently accurate to begin with?