The Zimmerman case

[Moncho]

I find it hilarious how people have such strong opinions about this and speak in absolute tones when they clearly don't know half the facts.

And you were there and have absolute certainty of what happened, right?

[Xant]

And you were there and have absolute certainty of what happened, right?

No, but I know all the facts. Some people seem to have a very curious concept of evidence. "Well, since we can't know what happened, clearly Zimmerman is in the wrong here." That isn't how it works. What we do know for a fact has all been just as Zimmerman said. Therefore it's more probable that the rest is correct as well, and he was found not guilty. To claim that he was in the wrong and did something that there is absolutely no evidence for, the burden of proof is on you.

[Erzengel]

What? It's not called a fistfight when someone attacks you for no reason and starts pounding your head against the concrete, then reaches for your gun and says "you're gonna die now." That's called assault and attempted murder. Zimmerman was heard by several people to be yelling "help, help." The gun was not his first choice.

Playing police? Chased? You're completely misinformed. First, he wasn't playing police. Indeed, he had turned down an offer from local PD to get police look-a-like gear and title. You call attempted murder "nothing wrong"? The death of Trayvon Martin was indeed avoidable - if he didn't attack an innocent guy, he'd be alive.
He didn't follow anyone and he didn't automatically assume anyone was a criminal.

I find it hilarious how people have such strong opinions about this and speak in absolute tones when they clearly don't know half the facts.

Zimmerman chased him because in his opinion Martin (a black teenager wearing a "hoodie") looked suspicious. He called the police and even they told him not to follow Martin. Zimmerman wasn't a police officer. A neighborhood watch isn't a part of the executive, so he had no legal base to chase him. He was just an ordinary civilian with a gun chasing an innocenct teenager, that's all.

You are the one who is making up "facts". We neither know why there was a fight nor what happened exactly. Claiming that Martin attempted to murder Zimmerman (why would he do this?) is just an assertion based on no reliable evidence. That's just what Zimmerman said to legitimate the killing of Trayvon Martin. There were no direct eyewitnesses for the whole incident (only a guy who reported a normal fist fight, not an "attempted murder") so this can hardly be a fact.

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

On the evening of February 26, 2012, Zimmerman observed Martin as he returned to the Twin Lakes housing community after having walked to a nearby convenience store.[58] At the time, Zimmerman was driving through the neighborhood on a personal errand.[59]

At approximately 7:09 PM,[Note 5] Zimmerman called the Sanford police non-emergency number to report what he considered a suspicious person in the Twin Lakes community.[61] Zimmerman stated, "We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy."[3] He described an unknown male "just walking around looking about" in the rain and said, "This guy looks like he is up to no good or he is on drugs or something."[62] Zimmerman reported that the person had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes.[63] On the recording, Zimmerman is heard saying, "these assholes, they always get away."[64][65]

About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running".[17] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[66] Noises on the tape at this point have been interpreted by some media outlets as the sound of a car door chime, possibly indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[67] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[17] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah", the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[68] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[17] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[17]

After Zimmerman ended his call with police, a violent encounter took place between Martin and Zimmerman, which ended when Zimmerman fatally shot Martin 70 yards (64 m) from the rear door of the townhouse where Martin was staying.[69][Note 6]

The only eyewitness to the end of the confrontation stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".[116] He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."[116][117][118]

Also:

During the months leading up to the February 26, 2012 shooting, Zimmerman called the police several times to report people he believed to be suspicious. On each of the calls, Zimmerman waited until he was asked by the dispatcher to provide a description of their race, and then reported that the people were black males.[55][56][57][Note 4]

And if they didn't allow people to carry, the wrong person would be dead.

So this means that Martin deserved to die?

[Xant]

Zimmerman chased him because in his opinion Martin (a black teenager wearing a "hoodie") looked suspicious. He called the police and even they told him not to follow Martin. Zimmerman wasn't a police officer. A neighborhood watch isn't a part of the executive, so he had no legal base to chase him. He was just an ordinary civilian with a gun chasing an innocenct teenager, that's all.

Zimmerman didn't chase anyone. He followed Martin briefly to keep the police up-to-date on where Martin was. He stopped following him when the dispatcher told him to stop.

(click to show/hide)

Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left...uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. Shit, he's running [background noises, possibly car door open warning chimes, heard].
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance...fucking [disputed/unintelligible]
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.

Who the fuck's claiming Zimmerman was a police officer? And again, he wasn't chasing anyone. He was ambushed when he was walking back to his car.

You are the one who is making up "facts". We neither know why there was a fight nor what happened exactly. Claiming that Martin attempted to murder Zimmerman (why would he do this?) is just an assertion based on no reliable evidence. That's just what Zimmerman said to legitimate the killing of Trayvon Martin. There were no direct eyewitnesses for the whole incident (only a guy who reported a normal fist fight, not an "attempted murder") so this can hardly be a fact.

If Zimmerman had the intention of killing Martin, it's very unlikely it'd have gotten to the point where Martin was pummeling his head against the concrete. Martin would have been shot from a distance. Zimmerman was shouting for help, which points towards the fact that he wasn't the aggressor.

Your Wikipedia quotations are hilarious, because they back up my argument.

... And why did you quote and bold this?

"On each of the calls, Zimmerman waited until he was asked by the dispatcher to provide a description of their race, and then reported that the people were black males"

Do you even understand what that says? It says that Zimmerman wasn't doing it because of racist motivations, he only answered the dispatcher's question when asked about the ethnicity of the guy.

And yes, Martin deserved to die.

[Paul]

And yes, Martin deserved to die.

Welcome to the Smoothrich drawer.

[Christo]

dayum

[Xant]

Welcome to the Smoothrich drawer.

Welcome to the retard drawer.

[Erzengel]

Why did he "keep the police up-to-date"? Did Martin commit any crime or did the police tell him to do so? No. He only did it because Martin was looking suspicious in his eyes. Martin did nothing to justify such an observation.

I never said that Zimmerman had the intention to murder Martin. He just overreacted and shot him during a fist fight, which only occurred at all because he had followed Martin before.

I which way do my quotes support your arguments? I never denied that Martin might have been the one who has started the fist fight. We simply don't know what happened exactly. It is still a fact that an unarmed teenager who did nothing wrong before was shot by a man who had followed/chased him only because he looked "suspicious".

I have quoted the last part to show that only black males seemed to be suspicious for Zimmerman, which is important for this case and might be a hint for a racist motivation (for the observation, not for the shooting).

Seems like you have a serious problem with facts and just interpret them how you want.

And yes, Martin deserved to die.

And here you show again that you are just a more eloquent version of DKG_Dragon. Why did Trayvor Martin deserve to die? Because of a quite harmless fist fight or just because he is black? The circumstance that you were already denying the holocaust in another thread lets me asume the latter...

[Christo]

Welcome to the Smoothrich drawer.

Welcome to the retard drawer.

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[CrazyCracka420]

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[Xant]

Why did he "keep the police up-to-date"? Did Martin commit any crime or did the police tell him to do so? No. He only did it because Martin was looking suspicious in his eyes. Martin did nothing to justify such an observation.

Uh, because he wanted the police to know where Martin was when they arrived? His neighborhood had had break ins before. Telling the police where someone is isn't against the law. Observation is not against the law either.

I never said that Zimmerman had the intention to murder Martin. He just overreacted and shot him during a fist fight, which only occurred at all because he had followed Martin before.

He did not overreact if his story is right. He would have been the one killed if he hadn't shot Martin. Following someone is not against the law.

I which way do my quotes support your arguments? I never denied that Martin might have been the one who has started the fist fight. We simply don't know what happened exactly. It is still a fact that an unarmed teenager who did nothing wrong before was shot by a man who had followed/chased him only because he looked "suspicious".

Your quotes only strengthen Zimmerman's story and do nothing to discredit him. Martin had in fact done "something wrong before", but that's not relevant one way or the other. What he did then and there is what matter, nothing else. And it seems probable that he did try try to kill Zimmerman, pounding his head against the concrete and allegedly going for Z's gun and saying "you gonna die now." Again, following someone briefly is not against the law or wrong in any way.

I have quoted the last part to show that only black males seemed to be suspicious for Zimmerman, which is important for this case and might be a hint for a racist motivation (for the observation, not for the shooting).

That is not what the quoted part says. The quoted part says that he only started talking about race after asked about it. Also, being more suspicious of black males only makes sense. Unless you're claiming young black males aren't over-represented in crime statistics?

Seems like you have a serious problem with facts and just interpret them how you want.

No you.

And here you show again that you are just a more eloquent version of DKG_Dragon. Why did Trayvor Martin deserve to die? Because of a quite harmless fist fight or just because he is black? The circumstance that you were already denying the holocaust in another thread lets me asume the latter...

You're a less eloquent version of DKG_Dragon. Martin deserved to die because he tried to kill an innocent man.

[Joseph Porta]

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[Erzengel]

Uh, because he wanted the police to know where Martin was when they arrived? His neighborhood had had break ins before. Telling the police where someone is isn't against the law. Observation is not against the law either.

The question remains: why was he observing him at all? What did Martin do to justify this? I would also be pretty pissed if a guy followed me without any reason.

He did not overreact if his story is right. He would have been the one killed if he hadn't shot Martin.

And it seems probable that he did try try to kill Zimmerman, pounding his head against the concrete and allegedly going for Z's gun and saying "you gonna die now." Again, following someone briefly is not against the law or wrong in any way.

If his story is right. There were no eyewitnesses. Personally I highly doubt that. Why would Martin try to kill him? As far as I know he was a normal teenager without any previous convictions. Of course Zimmerman is claiming that it was self-defence. Otherwise he would go to jail. It is not even clear that Martin started the fight.

Your quotes only strengthen Zimmerman's story and do nothing to discredit him. Martin had in fact done "something wrong before", but that's not relevant one way or the other. What he did then and there is what matter, nothing else.

Again, what has Martin done before? He bought something at a store and called a friend. Not very suspicious if you ask me... Again you are not able to provide any facts that support your version.

That is not what the quoted part says. The quoted part says that he only started talking about race after asked about it. Also, being more suspicious of black males only makes sense. Unless you're claiming young black males aren't over-represented in crime statistics?

It is possible that young black males in this area are overrepresented in the crime statistics. I am pretty sure though that they are not responsible for 100% of the crimes. All of Zimmerman's calls seemed to be about black males.

Martin deserved to die because he tried to kill an innocent man.

Martin died because an idiot was playing police and used a gun in a fist fight.

[Joseph Porta]

Dude probably thought he was getting trailed and decided to take the other dude instead of lettim him take himself, he waited for him to come close jumped on him, dude panicced drew gun bam ded

[Xant]

The question remains: why was he observing him at all? What did Martin do to justify this?

Observing is still not against the law. You don't need justification to observe someone. Martin was a black guy who didn't live in the neighborhood walking around leisurely, they'd had break ins in the past, Zimmerman was in the neighborhood watch whose job it is to, here's the kicker, watch.

If his story is right. There were no eyewitnesses. Personally I highly doubt that. Why would Martin try to kill him? As far as I know he was a normal teenager without any previous convictions. Of course Zimmerman is claiming that it was self-defence. Otherwise he would go to jail. It is not even clear that Martin started the fight.

If his story is right indeed. I don't claim to be 100% sure, only that it's more probable Zimmerman's account of the events is true or at least close to true. And yes, there was an eyewitness. You even quoted his story with your Wiki copypaste. I don't know why Martin would try to kill him, why would Martin attack in the first place? Same reason probably.

Again, what has Martin done before? He bought something at a store and called a friend. Not very suspicious if you ask me... Again you are not able to provide any facts that support your version.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/07/trayvon-martins-involvement-in-local-burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police-prosecutors.html
http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/police-buried-trayvons-criminal-history/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

Still, irrelevant. Whether he was there to break into some place or not is truly irrelevant. The actual assault and what happened then is the only thing that matters.

It is possible that young black males in this area are overrepresented in the crime statistics. I am pretty sure though that they are not responsible for 100% of the crimes. All of Zimmerman's calls seemed to be about black males.

And I'm pretty sure that Zimmerman didn't call the police about 100% of the black people he saw. BTW, Zimmerman's great grandfather is black and Zimmerman himself is a latino.

Martin died because an idiot was playing police and used a gun in a fist fight.

Martin died because a smart guy was handling shit in his neighborhood instead of sitting inside and complaining and then used his gun to defend his life when assaulted.