Author Topic: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community... [EDITED]  (Read 3784 times)

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Offline Dionysus

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+1
That doesn't exist in such a linear format in this game because its extremely skill driven.  For example, you have archers taking out dedicated melee players in melee.  This isn't a strategy game.  Its like in a shooter game,  A sniper at range should have the advantage on a pointman with a shotgun.  But it doesn't always work out that way.

Thank you. This is exactly the input I am looking for. It's a shame it took four or so posts to get that from you.

Going to state this again, I am not making an argument, nor am I complaining. I'm trying to create a discussion without being very direct.
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Offline Joker86

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I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts:

1.: Medieval combat was not about balance, if anything the opposite. You tried to keep it as unfair as possible, by all means you had, to get the upper hand over your enemy. This means it is not constructed around a "stone-scissors-paper"-system, which you can see by the different amounts of counters and prey classes the different classes have. Some are countered by more, some by less classes than they do counter. The high and late medieval knight, a highly trained, well equipped and usually really hard to kill fighter was the jack-of-all-trades at that time, at least the one which came closest to it. A single knight was always worth more than any other single fighter they had in their armies. Something which doesn't work in a MP game.

2.: The skill system introduced in M&B was not created with the idea of a MP game with constant characters, it's about SP. Different classes and builds need different amounts of skills and thus skill points to work. While a 2hd infantryman basically only needs power strike and weapon mastery to effectively swing his sword, a horse archer needs power draw, horse archery, riding skill and weapon master. Same for the equipment. A 2hd infantryman basically only needs his sword. To be a horse archer you (at least) need a bow, arrows and a horse. You can argue that with this basic setup (a naked 2hd infantryman without athletics vs a naked horse archer on a horse) the horse archer is more powerful than the 2hd infantryman, which represents the skill point cost. But since we are limited to lvl 30 in cRPG, and all players should be of about the same overall strength, the system breaks at this moment.

As we all know, you are not limited by the choice of skills, apart from the attribute requirement. But there does exist a limited amount of viable builds, especially due to the level cap, but also due to a few game mechanics concerning item weight, weapon proficiency and so on. There was a time when picking anything else than 18 STR and 6 PD for your archer was plainly stupid and inferior to this absolutely best choice.

I think it is interesting to give the option to try out different builds, but the choice is actually more limited than it looks like. You don't need to be a one man army, and usually you can't even be one, but you can be it more or you can be it less. If you want to be it less and more of a team player, supporter or something along these lines, you will undeniably be effective, and if people are playing properly with you you can even be super-effective, but usually on public servers a lot of frustration will be awaiting you. There are interdependencies between the classes, and sometimes strong synergy effects can be achieved, but again this varies from class to class.

As you notice I am constantly talking about classes, simply because I think there ARE classes. Your equipment heavily influences your playstyle, your possibilities and thus your role. You can have hybrids, but basically things stay the same, especially since a hybrid can always be only one class in a moment, never two at the same time. His advantage is that he can switch between those classes during the battle, giving him more flexibility at the expense of effectivity in his particular classes.

The last thing I like to mention is this goddamn market place, which actually entirely took out the equipment aspect of a build, since items are only restricted by their stats ever more, but not by something different. Short time after the implementation of the upkeep system I posted my alternative system where you can increase your (fixed) item budget by investing skill points, implementing a tradeoff between skills and equipment and thus adding more depth into the game, but it got ignored by the devs, although chadz once mentioned that my system would actually be "interesting"... this is not to lobby for my system, since cRPG is already dead in my eyes, it's just to show how the upkeep system is also part of the problem and how a possible alternative could look like.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:17:04 pm by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline karasu

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Offline Penitent

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I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts:

1.: Medieval combat ...

Oh, look at you Mr. Joker, you prince.  With your thought-out diatribe and well-reasoned intellectual responses.  You make me all giddy inside.

Offline SirCymro_Crusader

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Oh, look at you Mr. Joker, you prince.  With your thought-out diatribe and well-reasoned intellectual responses.  You make me all giddy inside.

My usual response to Joker's replies is TL;DR he never gives me one line responses :(

Offline Johammeth

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Re: Some points I would like to share and discuss with the community...
« Reply #50 on: October 29, 2013, 04:40:26 pm »
+1
After reading op, I'm getting the feeling of being watched, like something terrible is lurking at the edge of my vision, something which my brain could not fully comprehend and which would send me spiraling into madness should I managed to lay eyes on it. I'm getting increasingly convinced that there are horrors in the universe which no human should ever know of. When the stars are right, HE will once again walk the Earth - and to him, we re but a bacteria or moss on the planet surface. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

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Offline Joker86

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My usual response to Joker's replies is TL;DR he never gives me one line responses :(

It's because the world doesn't work with one liners. You can't explain everything with "because it's the way god made it" or "because your mother wants it".

P.S.: Almost fogort to add another line to my post by adding a "P.S."...
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Dionysus

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+1
I think almost every balance problem Warband and cRPG had, currently have and will always have are related to the following two facts...

Thank you for your response! You bring up a lot of good points! You mention how gear is the main influence for deciding your class. What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?
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Offline Rico

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What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?

People who do this are only effective over the short range, lucky, or if they still manage to shoot you, you just suck at dodging. Plus, they will pay a lot of upkeep and reload for hours. If they picked up the xbow, everything is legit. It isn't neither too heavy to lift (except for Kinngrimm, haha) nor too hard to pull the trigger. Every fool can do it, same as every fool can pick up a Greatsword, an Awlpike or a Scimitar. The question is whether all these people are successful. The answer is no.

Don't criticize crossbows, they are holy.
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Offline SirCymro_Crusader

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It's because the world doesn't work with one liners. You can't explain everything with "because it's the way god made it" or "because your mother wants it".

P.S.: Almost fogort to add another line to my post by adding a "P.S."...

TL;DR over one line :P

Offline Grumbs

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Ranged should definitely have to spend a good amount of their SP in using their ranged, something that is not really the case with xbows. If you're good at melee you hybrid way too efficiently IMO, especially with how good 1 handers are.
If you have ranged troubles use this:

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Offline Dionysus

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Don't criticize crossbows, they are holy.

Oh, I am not criticizing anything. I am asking Joker what he thinks about the use of crossbows in classes that have little to no proficiency in them.
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Offline Joker86

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Thank you for your response! You bring up a lot of good points! You mention how gear is the main influence for deciding your class. What do you think about crossbows being used by non-dedicated (to xbow, that is) melee builds? It's certainly less rampant since the slot changes, but would you consider this a change in class, or simply a force multiplier?

I think it's a problem of the upkeep system. In itself I think it is okay to have crossbows need little to no skills to be used, I think something like that can be implemented into a game properly without breaking the balance, just to cater realism a bit. But with the upkeep system having the task to limit people's gear, and the simultaneous implementation of the market place, there is no gear limitation, and thus, at least in theory, the crossbow becomes part of many melee classes.

I would say it is indeed a change of class, in terms of making a hybrid. But as I wrote, a hybrid is never something new or a class for itself, it is somebody who can switch between two classes whenever he needs to. It's a slight flexibility buff, nothing more. So rather a force multiplier.

TL;DR over one line :P

Balance is bad because medieval battles (and the "classes" back then) were unbalanced, the M&B skill system is unbalanced and upkeep system sucks.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Murmillus_Prime

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AAAAAPES :mrgreen:
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Offline SirCymro_Crusader

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Balance is bad because medieval battles (and the "classes" back then) were unbalanced, the M&B skill system is unbalanced and upkeep system sucks.

That whole post for that?! I knew that already :P