Meanwhile, on NA2...

[Ninja_Khorin]

After seeing this video i have can honestly say: I can kill a human a million times easier than a dog

As someone who held his dog when she was put down, I can honestly say I would imagine it would be so much harder doing the same to a human. And I loved my dog like crazy and grew up with her and it was excruciating.

[CrazyCracka420]

Good thing I haven't been playing crpg the last few days.

Battle mode for life (lol @ respawning).  Siege = full strength build ftw.  In battle you can help your team and do well personally with any class.  Not to mention the terrible siege maps.  Tonight when NA2 is more populated do me this experiment, for each map you play keep track of whether the defenders or attackers win each round of the map. 

My hypothesis is that on 90% of the maps one side will win every round of the map.

[Elindor]

You'd be surprised, siege is actually NOT infested with strength build maulers unless specific groups/people get on.  I find the builds/loadouts to be pretty similar to that in battle, although of course less horses and a bit less spears.

A lot of people like Mazrim, Jona, and many others are actually rather lightly armored. 

----

Yes, some of the siege maps are not great - there are MANY reasons for this.

1 - There needs to be a better screening process for maps before they get in (hopefully Fips/Teeth will help this)
2 - As a map maker myself, I know that siege maps are a *LOT* harder to make than battle maps from a balance perspective.  You have to give defense some defensive advantages but not too much or it turns into a meat grinder for offense and no one likes that.  Run times to flag have to be minded, AND the way the editor handles defensive spawn points is all but mysterious and possibly retarded.  Also, varying population amounts effects map balance: typically low pop benefits offense, and high pop benefits defense - so it is no easy feat for mappers to make a balanced siege map.

Not sure why you hate on siege so much - siege is just good intense fun.

Reason I like siege?  I love the mechanics of MB and its the only game like it...I want to use them (same reason I use 4 directional weapon without shield).
In siege you get more action, and its fun!

Don't get me wrong it can be frustrating but so can battle, and I *DO* like battle too...I play there from time to time as well.

[Dexxtaa]

People don't like siege because, while agility builds and light armor *can* flourish on it, it does take a certain degree of situational awareness to successfully fight in siege with those builds.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that the current siege layouts cater more to strength builds more so than Agility builds.

Personally, I believe a large determinant of the general siege hate comprise of 2 related, but distinctly separate issues:

#1. It's a different "game." [The problem with the Player]
Siege can be a meat-grinder or your own personal slaughterhouse-playground, depending on your experience.

cRPG battle exclusive fighters tend to rail on siege a whole lot more than Strategus participants or even the occassional siege-goer. I believe this is due to a low variation in their repertoire or skill base. They lack the situational awareness required to fight in close quarters combat (CQC), as well as being unable or unwilling to adapt their combat styles or weapons to fit the tight space fighting that is inevitable when engaging on a wall or on a chokepoint.

I personally have started carrying a dagger due to the fact I basically got it for freesies (and who doesn't like free shit). As a side effect, I've found a lot of utility with the knife on siege because it allows me to swing the thing like a maniac unimpeded. I see many people using their Halberds, Claymores, and other large and/or long weapons in close combat. Naturally, these weapons jam on backswings, overheads when they connect with teammates.

Finally, people are not sure how to deal with siege. The NA community as a whole is pretty shit at Siege because of our inexperience with the game mode. We need time to cultivate the proper battle etiquette (someone should really make a list for this). ie Don't stand directly behind the front line, don't report a teamwound JUST because it happened (assess the circumstances before reporting, no one on your team is trying to beat your shit in) etc.


#2. " Teamwork, Cohesion and Synergy™ " [Role warfare]
Siege catches a ton of flak because of the "single mindedness" or the "dumb knuckle dragging str 
builds" who traverse the server *cough* kutt *cough* 

As I've mentioned, *ALL* builds can thrive in siege, but it takes the mental fortitude and will of each individual combatant to implicitly TRUST each other combatant on the team to play their role (Going to make a separate post for the details).

- In a nutshell, STR builds do frontline combat.
- Shielders quit fucking hiding behind those shields and USE the shields as a linebreaker.
- Agi builds, fuck around with the fatties on the other team; lure them out of their defensive line. Particularly focus on breaking through the line that we try to open for you.
- Balanced builds fortify the line or break through as you see fit. You're the sweepers
- Archers, don't fucking stand around and shoot when the flag is going down. If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.
- Crossbows, same thing as archers, except that siege might actually be a really great place to practice shotgun tactics.
- Anyone using long weapons; just put them away for now and use something else in CQC.

[Inglorious]

I avoided siege for the longest time due to the dominating factor of "If I have a two hand, I win". But now, it's not so bad; learned to kick/block

[Carthan]

Last night I believe siege hovered around 60 players
Reducing the battle player base to around 20-30

EDIT: To clarify that is a success

[Hirlok]

If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.

Let me rephrase this: if you see a guy around your flag with a bardiche and funny red feathers sticking out of his butt, whip out that dagger and stab his face. He just asked for it. Heard it, archers? ;-)

The rest: wisdom. Dexx knows diz shit, even longer than me I think.

[San]

I had loads of fun playing siege with a 15/24 1h no shield cut damage only and did pretty well, you just can't play like a strength build (you can, it'll just be harder). You have to try to fight where there's space and spread your damage out among opponents who aren't paying attention to you/ hold off multiple foes without going in too deep and getting surrounded. Also another plus is that you can get to places quicker than your teammates, so it helps if you have an understanding of what's going on in the map.

[Penitent]

Siege requires a lot more teamwork than battle.  The team that works together the most is the one that keep the multi.  This is true for battle too, to an extent, but there's much less room for rambo- heroes in siege.
That being said, there is a good variety of siege maps, some with more open floor plans than others that can accommodate different tactics.

Personally, I stay on siege because I want to play and not wait.  Sure, I can browse the web while I'm dead in battle waiting for the next round...but I can do that shit at work.  If I actually have time to play CRPG in between work and family obligations, I want to MURDER DEATH KILL as much as possible and not fiddle around on youtube while I wait again and again to spawn.

[Jona]

People don't like siege because, while agility builds and light armor *can* flourish on it, it does take a certain degree of situational awareness to successfully fight in siege with those builds.

Also, I'll be the first to admit that the current siege layouts mod caters more to strength builds more so than Agility builds.

Personally, I believe a large determinant of the general siege hate comprise of 2 related, but distinctly separate issues:

#1. It's a different "game." [The problem with the Player]
Siege can be a meat-grinder or your own personal slaughterhouse-playground, depending on your experience.

cRPG battle exclusive fighters tend to rail on siege a whole lot more than Strategus participants or even the occassional siege-goer. I believe this is due to a low variation in their repertoire or skill base. They lack the situational awareness required to fight in close quarters combat (CQC), as well as being unable or unwilling to adapt their combat styles or weapons to fit the tight space fighting that is inevitable when engaging on a wall or on a chokepoint.

I personally have started carrying a dagger due to the fact I basically got it for freesies (and who doesn't like free shit). As a side effect, I've found a lot of utility with the knife on siege because it allows me to swing the thing like a maniac unimpeded. I see many people using their Halberds, Claymores, and other large and/or long weapons in close combat. Naturally, these weapons jam on backswings, overheads when they connect with teammates.

Finally, people are not sure how to deal with siege. The NA community as a whole is pretty shit at Siege because of our inexperience with the game mode. We need time to cultivate the proper battle etiquette (someone should really make a list for this). ie Don't stand directly behind the front line, don't report a teamwound JUST because it happened (assess the circumstances before reporting, no one on your team is trying to beat your shit in) etc.


#2. " Teamwork, Cohesion and Synergy™ " [Role warfare]
Siege catches a ton of flak because of the "single mindedness" or the "dumb knuckle dragging str 
builds" who traverse the server *cough* kutt *cough* 

As I've mentioned, *ALL* builds can thrive in siege, but it takes the mental fortitude and will of each individual combatant to implicitly TRUST each other combatant on the team to play their role (Going to make a separate post for the details).

- In a nutshell, STR builds do frontline combat.
- Shielders quit fucking hiding behind those shields and USE the shields as a linebreaker.
- Agi builds, fuck around with the fatties on the other team; lure them out of their defensive line. Particularly focus on breaking through the line that we try to open for you.
- Balanced builds fortify the line or break through as you see fit. You're the sweepers
- Archers, don't fucking stand around and shoot when the flag is going down. If you can put your face between the flag and my bardiche, just do it. It might save your x5.
- Crossbows, same thing as archers, except that siege might actually be a really great place to practice shotgun tactics.
- Anyone using long weapons; just put them away for now and use something else in CQC.

Nice suggestions overall... hope some battle / inexperienced siege players can learn something from it and will come to siege more often or at least play better when they do.  Just got a few additions / changes for yah:

• Agi builds or higher-agi balanced builds should do two things mainly (on defense):
  
  • Sally out of the castle and skirmish with the enemy while they run to the ladders (really only do this on the first life.. at most spend 2 lives if perhaps defense is doing a really good job at holding the walls). This is a great way to flank guys going up the ladder (just overhead the guys with no situational awareness from behind over and over), and it also lures guys away from the ladder. I can easily attract a crowd of 4-5 people, even in low pop siege. If I can distract that many players on my own, that is normally 1/3 or 1/4 of the attacking team, and only at the cost of one of the defending players... giving the rest of my team a larger numbers advantage. And if I only last 20 seconds, and don't even get any kills, that is still a huge help. Odds are that even if I don't land a single hit they will have teamwounded each other plenty of times anyways...
  • Later in the round, agi builds should be more of the sweeper class. Str builds preferably at the walls (if still feasible) and camping the flag, while agi builds go wherever necessary, and skirmish with any guys they meet along the way, killing off any wannabe-ninjas in a quick 1v1 and then moving on the the next one. Also if the enemy teack is pushing back your team in some sort of hallway, or on a wall, as an agi build you can quickly get in position behind the enemy lines and once again, overhead overhead overhead. (Or you know, stab aboose if thats your thing.)
• The main thing shielders need to remember is that they are really more of a support class... no doubt there are many skilled shielders who can take on a good 2h or polearm or pure 1h in a 1v1, but for the most part two players of the same skill in a 1v1, shielder vs non-shielder, the non-shielder will win. In the beginning of siege it is necessary for shielders to defend their str builds / wall campers from any ranged, BEFORE the siege tower lands / the attackers get up the ladders. Once the enemy starts pouring over the walls shielders need to drop their shield (well, stop holding RMB anwyays) and get the hell outa there. Nothing more annoying than being unable to swing in any direction because of only 1 or 2 friendly shielders absorbing all of your hits. They don't need to exactly retreat entirely... they just need to take a step back from the action and kill any that get past the rest of the team... if they sit JUST outside of the main skirmish they can easily kill anyone looking to flank the rest of the team, or they can stop any breakaway runners. Later in the round it is up to the shielders to camp flag... get in front of your teammates if ranged is trying to thin you out, but once the fight comes to the flag, try and stay alive as long as possible, while staying away from you teammate's swings. No build is better suited to defend the flag in a mob of enemies than a shielder... and without overtime, it is quite a devastating tactic.
• I agree with what was said on archers... only thing to add is if at all possible grab a nice spot and camp... dont try and stand on the walls where the brunt of the fighting may very well shortly take place... nothing more annoying that a defender S keying only to get shot from behind by a friendly archer pointblank, and then having the archer get cut own since the melee-er was the archer's only defense. If on a tower or higher wall you can get a better angle (read: shoot over teammates instead of through them) on enemies and will be safer, so long as you have some situational awareness since if you are doing a good job someone will inevitably come up behind you. Also, attacking archers should do exactly the same once the outer walls have been captured... just claim them as your own and sit in a tower. You will help your team hold the walls even when the melee assault gets pushed back.
• One of the best things for xbows to do is camp behind a doorway that attackers are cutting down.. open it and shotgun, then close it again. Works best if you have backup, just in case there are 2 guys and one sneaks by... or you somehow manage to miss... in which case you must be a bad xbower and should never try such a risky tactic again.

I had loads of fun playing siege with a 15/24 1h no shield cut damage only and did pretty well, you just can't play like a strength build (you can, it'll just be harder). You have to try to fight where there's space and spread your damage out among opponents who aren't paying attention to you/ hold off multiple foes without going in too deep and getting surrounded. Also another plus is that you can get to places quicker than your teammates, so it helps if you have an understanding of what's going on in the map.

It really isn't that hard to play agi when you've got a liuyedao which can move faster than people eye's can track it... and swing through blocks each time.

[San]

Stabless cut non-long 1h with 5PS and no shield?

One thing I forgot to mention is that many times it's more worth it to ignore an enemy and get to your destination than try to get him killed. Deciding how close to the flag you should fight the enemy is also important when thinking about how long it takes for people to spawn and come back.

[Testicleez]

The main reason I don't like siege is how you're constantly playing pretty much. I like Battle because if you die early in the round, you can get up & grab a snack or use the bathroom, etc. Also, in Battle, you can spend your time while being dead spectating other players. Nothing compares to when there's only 1 person left on each team, everyone in the server is watching, then one of the players is humiliated or killed in a funny way and the chat box lights up with "LOL/RIP IN PEACE/REKT!"

I just feel like everyone has some sense of individuality in Battle, whereas in Siege you can't notice.

[Carthan]

Stabless cut non-long 1h with 5PS and no shield?

One thing I forgot to mention is that many times it's more worth it to ignore an enemy and get to your destination than try to get him killed. Deciding how close to the flag you should fight the enemy is also important when thinking about how long it takes for people to spawn and come back.

Very true, ninjas and stealth are actual features of siege.
No better feeling than creeping about the base and either assassinating people, or trying to capture the flag undetected.
(I mean seriously what other way do defenders have of winning other than watching their flag and entryways closely)

[Dexxtaa]

Very true, ninjas and stealth are actual features of siege.
No better feeling than creeping about the base and either assassinating people, or trying to capture the flag undetected.
(I mean seriously what other way do defenders have of winning other than watching their flag and entryways closely)

I remember keeping an eye on the flag in my full armor. Every few seconds I'd take a gander over at the flag and notice there was one or two fewer people guarding the flag, and I atttributed it to people getting bored and running off (were those bodies always there?). Finally, I get annoyed with people constantly "leaving" the flag and start typing a small essay in chat to get people back on it.

And that was when I got roflstomped by 3 people who were sitting around the corner ganking all the unsuspecting defenders until they finally finished me off (who was the farthest away from the flag, and also the heaviest armored).

[dynamike]

What I noticed about siege is there are always walls in the way.