Serious 1h Stab Discussion

[San]

As a non-stab 1h player who doesn't feel like he's missing out much with the stab, I am trying to understand people's woes on the 1h stab change recently.

These animations have been changed recently to have better speeds/alignment:

1h stab
1h right swing

polearm overhead
polearm stab
polearm left swing

The 1h stab animation length increase, from what I noticed, helped beat out the non-dedicated stabbing polearms, because by the time the polearm is nearly at full extension, the 1h is closer to middle extension, therefore the 1h can hit earlier at midrange. On the flip side, these polearms have much longer swings with no more "blind spots" like in the past (left swing or overhead = death most of the time), and polearm hits stop the enemy in his tracks. Dedicated stabbing polearms are so long that it doesn't really matter without the 1h player moving much faster. From what I notice, I don't really find any kind of stab easier than the other.

All in all, I don't think it's much of an animation problem, but a stats problem. Some of the 1h stab damages were artificially buffed to compensate for the poor animation. I think that these changes should just be reverted for the longer weapons since the animation is fixed and the old stats were more balanced. The shorter 1h stabs are still damaging, but the natural length is short enough, and they're overshadowed by the current long weapons' damages. That and/or tweak the +3p/+3c heirloom bonus to +3p/+2c.

Changes made:
Espada Eslavona: 30p->31p
                             101speed->102speed (maybe keep this? Its 25c is pretty bad IMO)

Long Espada Eslavona: 28p->29p

Side Sword-> 100speed->99speed
                       thrust: 28p->29p
                       swing: 28c->29c

tl;dr change these back, +3 gives +3p/+3c.

[Falka]

28 cut is pretty bad, so I would leave side sword its 29 cut. Decreasing stab dmg by 1 or 2 points should be enough. And espadas are so rare on the battlefield that I don't see the point in nerfing them. Their stab is great, but cut dmg is obsolete. I mostly use niuweidao or other cut oriented swords like grosse or langes messer and don't think that 1h stab is the problem.

[Grumbs]

Need to compare 1 hand stabbing swords to hoplite playstyle, and I believe the hoplite takes a bigger damage nerf when equiped with a shield than 1 handers right? And you lose the side swings. ATM the shorter spears seem kind of obsolete to me, especially if you don't have the horse rearing ability. ~20 blunt is also on par with 30 cut, but you have to put the shield away for it

[Falka]

I believe the hoplite takes a bigger damage nerf when equiped with a shield than 1 handers right?

Nope? There's no "damage nerf" as far as i know.

[Duster]

~20 blunt is also on par with 30 cut,

no

[HappyPhantom]

Nope? There's no "damage nerf" as far as i know.

Isn't there a speed bonus penalty with a shield equipped?

[EyeBeat]

The problem with the new 1h stab is that everyone leads with the stab.  There is no reason not to.  It has the longest range and the "activation of a hit" time is the longest of all swings on a 1h.  The swing is instantaneous.  Pierce damage is the best damage and does more if you hit someones head if I am not mistaken.

If a 2h stab is blocked they get delayed longer than if a 1h stab gets blocked.

1h stab is ridiculous right now and that is why you see every single person using it. 

Everyone is saying that Tydeus ruined the game with it.  I think it just needs to be tweaked further maybe buffing previously nerfed weapons around the new 1h stab.

[Vodner]

Pierce damage is the best damage and does more if you hit someones head if I am not mistaken.

All damage types get the same bonus from a headshot.

[EyeBeat]

All damage types get the same bonus from a headshot.

For some reason I thought pierce got more of a bonus.

[Gurnisson]

For some reason I thought pierce got more of a bonus.

People said so way back in warband beta, but it turned out not to be true, iirc.

[Tyefire]

My issue with 1h stab is how people use it. Hey if you do it then do it but don't make it like its the only attack you can do and just abuse the shit out of it.
Another thing this brings rondel dagger builds out and makes them overpowered as hell.

[Matey]

Everyone is saying that Tydeus ruined the game with it.  I think it just needs to be tweaked further maybe buffing previously nerfed weapons around the new 1h stab.

http://forum.melee.org/the-chamber-of-tears/cry-some-more!/

Actually, only 10% of people seem to be crying about 1H now.

[Grumbs]

no

20 blunt vs 30 cut against 60 armour in spoilers below. Only the average damage matters now since they changed how armour damage works (its only 5% variance now rather than up tp 45%). Against 70 armour its the same, 8 for cut, 7.5 for blunt

(click to show/hide)

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Hoplites lose 15% of damage and speed of the shown stats I believe, when you equip a spear with a shield, but gain some reach.

[San]

I compare the stab swords to the spear weapons mostly. Because of the low variance in cut for most 1h weapons, mostly 30-32 with a few outliers, 29 cut isn't bad at all. It used to be crippling with the crappy stabs, but not anymore.

Also forgot spathion's pierce change. It should be changed in a way that still makes it unique, but I don't know how exactly. It used to just be a knightly arming sword clone.

@Grumbs
None of our damage calculators are that accurate anymore. I have the pseudocode in a script, but don't know how exactly the minimization of the random factor was performed. I know they changed the penalty for polearm with shield in the past, too. At times, it feels like they're as powerful as ever IMO, but the reach bonus is very good either way.

Edit: 20b~=30c is good, because the weapons we're comparing it to is 25-28c, even weaker.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

All damage types get the same bonus from a headshot.

Yep, ranged hits have a different (bigger) multiplier than melee hits though.

The multiplier seems to be applied after the armor math.

Code: [Select]

randomized_damage = (random.random() * 0.1 + 0.9) * raw_damage
soaked_damage = randomized_damage - randomized_soak

if (soaked_damage < 0.0):
soaked_damage = 0.0

randomized_reduction = math.exp((random.random() * 0.55 + 0.45) * reduction_factor * 0.014)
reduced_damage = (1.0 - 1.0 / randomized_reduction) * soaked_damage

if (reduction_factor < 0.00001):
reduced_damage  = 0.0

damage_difference = round(reduced_damage + randomized_soak)

effective_damage = randomized_damage - damage_difference

if hit_bone == head:
effective_damage *= 1.2

if item_is_ranged:
effective_damage *= 1.75
elif hit_bone == calf or hit_bone == thigh:
effective_damage *= 0.9

effective_damage = clamp(effective_damage, 0.0, 500.0)