Training lessons and broken promises

[Jarold]

cRPG Beta, meaning everything is subject to change, get used to it.

[Kafein]

Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

This is the game for you sir

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Fairness is bland. The reason I liked playing as a peasant back when I began playing cRPG was precisely that because I had no chance of defeating knights, my own goals were different. There are countless multiplayer games around with absolute fairness, like TF2 if you want a known example. What cRPG was at some point was very different and very fun indeed.

[mokuchin]

I think 2.5m is a proper price. Over 3m is too high.

[Phew]

Imagine if everyone was at a fixed level like 35 and you could freely respec and play whatever you wanted at all times, also without looms so you could freely use any weapon you wanted without being at a disadvantage.

No_bullshit_just_play

The appeal of cRPG for most people isn't some sense of accomplishment from gaining looms/levels, its a sense of personalization. i.e. "I'm the only guy with x build+y gear". Using Final Boss' texture pack enhances this feeling. If everyone switched builds/gear every day with a couple mouse clicks, any attachment to one's character/equipment would disappear.

At least on the only server I play on (NA Siege), certain looms are rare enough that I can see it on the ground and be like "Oh, +3 Short Arming Sword; I better watch out for Konrax and his stabs", or "+3 practice shield? Crap, I foresee Frug beating me to death with some farming implement in short order".
To me, it's the same feeling as encountering some rare drop in a MMORPG, except the "boss" that dropped it is another player. Take that away, and cRPG becomes just another generic multiplayer deathmatch game.

[TheAppleSauceMan]

Sounds like you're not very appreciative of all the devs efforts if you think Native + leveling and looms = cRPG.

For me the attractive part of cRPG is freedom in choice of build and gear, apart from much better balance, much more enjoyable pubgame and some very considerable improvements to the combat system. Now I get, well I actually I don't but I have been told, that for some people looms and levels are an encouragement to keep playing, but at this point don't the limitations that leveling and looms offer encourage more people to not play than it encourages people to play? Sure, for me personally having 3 level 30+ characters + a stf and access to a decently sized armoury goes a long way into taking away these senseless limitations, but still I can imagine some people can't be bothered to play the only build they are able to play at a competitive level.

That's quite an assumption to make. I simply say this because if everyone is on even grounds level-wise, and free to change class at any time, it's very similar to Native. Sure there's a bit more freedom as you can do some wonky things like a 13 ATH troll build, but that's not really my point. The point I was trying to make is that in Native you can freely change between classes (which are similar to builds in that they each have different stats). If everyone has equal access to these and can change at any point in time, well Native and c-RPG just became a lot more alike.

I do very much appreciate the devs work, but to be fair, the basic concept of c-RPG is exactly that. Native + leveling/looms = c-RPG. Though they have changed various combat mechanics and such recently. But the reason I originally tried this mod is because I loved the idea of Native with leveling and persistence, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that being the main difference between Native and c-RPG, especially considering how wonderfully they have implemented said idea.

[Kafein]

Strategus  and the way cRPG was in the beginning is IMO a pretty big hint the goal was to introduce elements that worked in SP into MP.

[The_Bloody_Nine]

Maybe, just maybe, different people have or had different reasons why they came to like this mod so much.   

and sauceman, they didn't changed combat only recently.

[Heroin]

Native + leveling/looms = c-RPG.

This is what I was speaking of when I said cRPG has been riding the coat tails of 2 good ideas since it's inception. If I'm being honest, I'd have to say that I preferred most of the native mechanics to the things the cRPG staff has implemented since then. I also liked the way the weapons and armor worked back then better, and preferred the old XP system.

As I said to start; I feel that the original ideas they came up with for "Native + levelling/looms" was amazing. Most other changes have simply taken us further away from an otherwise awesome thing.

I think 2 million on the site is fair and does a proper job of removing gold from the economy

I have to disagree. I think 500k is fair, while still removing gold from the economy. If 500k is trivial, I'd like to see how many people are willing to just hook me up with 500k. Trivial is giving a bum your pocket change. If 500k is that pocket change, I'll be your bum.

[San]

Yeah. I definitely don't want to pay 5 million like some people had already, but I feel it should be worth more than a +3 item.

[TheAppleSauceMan]

Maybe, just maybe, different people have or had different reasons why they came to like this mod so much.   

and sauceman, they didn't changed combat only recently.

This is very true, but I was making a generalization! In my experience, most people came to this mod due to the idea of persistence/leveling. I know I did personally, most of, if not all of, my clan came for that reason as well. As well as all my RL friends that play/played.

[Heroin]

Yeah. I definitely don't want to pay 5 million like some people had already, but I feel it should be worth more than a +3 item.

Again, I have to disagree. That +3 item is being undervalued here. For those of us who've played for years, undervaluing time might be easy to do. But under the current XP system, that +3 item represents up to 492 hours of playtime for the most unlucky/unskilled amongst us.

Do you think it should take 492 hours of playtime to be able to afford a respec? That's 61.5 days of playing the game 8 hours a day. That's a full-time job, working 7 days a week for two months. That simply isn't in the realm of reasonable for something that's supposed to be a game/hobby/fun.

[San]

I guess we agree to disagree, since I believe people who are willing to pay for training lessons usually have put in significant time in the game. 500k is good, but I think your estimation on the time required is quite pessimistic. With the extra tick at 6:30, valor , etc, I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens, a small fraction of exp of a level 34-36. I wonder how much the devs think it should cost..

[Heroin]

I guess we agree to disagree, since I believe people who are willing to pay for training lessons usually have put in significant time in the game. 500k is good, but I think your estimation on the time required is quite pessimistic. With the extra tick at 6:30, valor , etc, I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens, a small fraction of exp of a level 34-36. I wonder how much the devs think it should cost..

2-4 gens is a long time of playing in light gear to make that 500k. Imagine, then, trying to make 3 million instead. Based on your numbers, it would take 12-24 gens to make the current cost of a respec, if we don't consider selling the loompoints from retiring(which we shouldn't, if you're only using the character you're trying to respec to make that gold).

500k = 2-4 gens, on average equals 246 hours(x2 multi average)
3 mil = 12-24 gens, on average equals 1476 hours(x2 multi average)

So with prices as they are currently, you'd basically have to play 6 hours a day, 5 days a week for a year to be able to afford to respec without selling looms. Reasonable? I think not.

So yeah, if you still think that's reasonable, I agree to disagree with you.


EDIT: Also, including valor is assuming the random person we're talking about is good. That's an unfair assumption to apply to the general population. If everyone were you, who is obviously excellent, it might be an easier pill to swallow. Not everyone can rock a x5 all day long, and that makes a big difference in how much you make. And the 6:30 tick only makes up for all the rounds that end at 4:02, where you don't get the gold tick for the other full minute you played.

[Falka]

I believe someone with light gear can make 500k in 2-4 gens,

2-4 gens is a long time of playing in light gear to make that 500k.

Uh, with light gear you can get much more than 500 k in 4 gens. Actually in 1 gen without any upkeep you can earn 436 750 gold (8 735 ticks x 50 gold for each tick - at gen 1, players with higher gens lvl up faster, needs a bit less ticks, so they can get a bit less gold). Fallen wayyne with his normal gear (tribal warrior outfit, leather gloves and goadeng) probably can earn more than 350 k gold in one generation. Add loompoints for each gen and you can get training lessons in 4 gens. Is that so much? Especially when you think about strat battles with huge amount of xp which you can earn there - even 1,3-1,5mln xp for 1 battle, 2 hours of playing...

[BlueKnight]

Fallen wayyne with his normal gear (tribal warrior outfit, leather gloves and goadeng lol) probably can earn more than 350 k gold in one generation.

Nah, imho he may get around +200k max.

When I was playing as a naked courserwoman with a heavy glance I made 100k in 1 gen. I know that my items were more expensive than wayyyne's but there were only 2 items in my eq that were worth something. Wayyne has more items but less expensive and though I guess he may get more gold but 350k is just too much.