Author Topic: The battle of Nova Fenada...  (Read 4136 times)

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Offline Canary

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2013, 12:42:17 am »
+2
I'm confused, can you draw a diagram?   :twisted:

I think it would prob be easier to enforce the no pikeing thru walls than it was to read that massive wall of crap.

Alright, fine, diagram it is.

(click to show/hide)

If you would like to know why this is the case, you'll have to actually read the other post.

Offline Keshian

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2013, 12:50:57 am »
-5
Alright, fine, diagram it is.

(click to show/hide)

If you would like to know why this is the case, you'll have to actually read the other post.

Lol, the first picture is impossible - what the second picture doesn't show is he brings the long spear down instantly so that it stabs straight throuh the wall in actual practice - but as a piker I see you rationalizing that as allowed, when in fact its classified under the disallowed.  You can stab someone over it but not through by abusing the animation.  Stabbing over is not poking up for  a second then stabbing someone with no exposed parts straight through the wall.  Its actually stabbing someone with either head or some other part slightly exposed above the wall at the angle your picture shows.  You can check with EU on this and find this is the actual rule.  In the battle that took place the wall was 2 feet higher than people's heads so the only way to connect was actually stabbing through the solid object - which was repeatedly done and condoned by you even after we reported it.

I understand your desire to stab straight through solid objects by momentarily pointing upwards with the long spear, but you are not allowed to hit someone where you have to stab through the solid object as the only way to get a hit - they actually have to have exposed parts otherwise you are just abusing the animation glitch problem that makes long spears so easy and abusable where you can stab always at any range or angle as long as you move it from a different angle from your initial stab.
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Offline Malaclypse

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2013, 01:04:27 am »
+2
Lol, the first picture is impossible

If you're pressed right up against a "thin" wall (solid gates, low stone walls, gatehouse walls next to the doorway) it's totally possible. I can attest that I've had this done to me (fucking Tanken in NA2 and those gates that arrows cannot go through, stabbing folk, jerk), though note that it is only the Pike that can do this reliably- Long Spear is too short. I can also attest that I've done this (in DTV against rabid, dumb bots- never against other players- guilty as charged) as a Pike-fella. Anyhow, attacking over a wall and then stabbing down so that part of the pike shaft goes through it isn't a justification Canary came up with AFAIK; it came from the Logos, probably (or EU admins/devs).
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Offline Keshian

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2013, 01:06:32 am »
0
. Anyhow, attacking over a wall and then stabbing down so that part of the pike shaft goes through it isn't a justification Canary came up with AFAIK; it came from the Logos, probably (or EU admins/devs).

Its what was actually happening in the battle because the wall was too high - roughly two feet higher than the characters.
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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2013, 01:06:44 am »
0
Thanks for the pic Canary, I knew what you were talking about all along, just always enjoy pitchers.  And thanks for explaining to us veterans, what we already all probably knew (even tho Kesh and Bale are acting dumb now).  I like it when you talk to us like we're in the slow class, it makes me feel extra special :D

Kesh the pike animation is going around the wall in your example (I didn't see, but that's what it sounds like you're describing).  You surely will recognize pikes are taller than people.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2013, 02:07:19 am »
+2
Kesh is correct. That wall was well over everyone's head. So they were not piking over it at all. They were aiming up and swinging down certainly.. however the end result was pikes ghosting thru the wall. A simple no piking thru objects could have ended it... We had 2 guys give it a go and even with the admins saying it was "ok" we told them to stop and they did. As it should have been for both sides.

I understood full well what canary was saying. he always just picks the longest winded way to say anything.
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Offline Kalam

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2013, 03:38:56 am »
+6
There's only one way to settle this: Championship Warfare.

Canary vs. Kesh, one single duel, no rules but win, winner takes all.

You think I'm joking, but I'm serious.

Offline Canary

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2013, 03:43:01 am »
+3
If you're standing immediately next to a wall and the wall is taller than both characters (this is excluding standing on something that gives you a view over it, or if you can jump high enough) stabbing beyond the hitbox of the wall to hit the person on the other side it not reasonable, either. That's the best way to put it, I reckon, and something I didn't point out very well in my previous post or during the battle: If you can't see the player on the other side from your position, you shouldn't be hitting them over an obstacle. Time for another diagram!

(click to show/hide)


The "start of stab not being into the wall" thing is the current rule of thumb, but not the end-all to enforcement for this rule. Saying merely "don't stab through walls" is a bit vague, and I tried to clarify that point, but didn't do a very good job during the fight, I'm afraid. From what I saw in the battle, nobody was actually stabbing people directly on the other side of the wall, though, whether straight through or dragging it over from their position on the ground - at least not when I started looking once the warnings were issued. If people were jumping or stabbing over the wall hitting people on ladders (which were right on the other side of the wall leading up to the roof at times during the fight), in both cases they were players they could see easily, then they were fine. That's what I saw happening from both sides' pikemen. If this continues to be a problem, I'll have to spectate for longer.

(click to show/hide)

I understood full well what canary was saying. he always just picks the longest winded way to say anything.

My bad.

Offline Duster

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2013, 03:43:46 am »
+7
There's only one way to settle this: Championship Warfare.

Canary vs. Kesh, one single duel, no rules but win, winner takes all.

You think I'm joking, but I'm serious.

I'd love to see this, but I don't think either could stand to lose it.

(click to show/hide)
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Offline Canary

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2013, 03:54:27 am »
+3
There's only one way to settle this: Championship Warfare.

Canary vs. Kesh, one single duel, no rules but win, winner takes all.

You think I'm joking, but I'm serious.

What all does the winner take?

I suppose I ought to be dueling with a long spear for this? Hyuk hyuk.

Offline Novamere

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2013, 04:00:34 am »
+2
+1 Love the RP haha

Offline BaleOhay

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2013, 01:10:56 pm »
+1
your last picture in that spoiler was what was happening and what we were complaining about... your people were without a doubt stabbing people completely hidden by the wall... no jumping required. I was there a couple of times.. my head no where near the top and a pike was hitting me several times and I was not the only one. Even standing back from the wall all you could see of the attacker was the pike so at no point was it coming over and just clipping the wall a little... at no point was it not thru the wall...

If you would like we can go to that map on a test server and you can stand behind it and I will use "magic" to hit you
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Offline Keshian

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2013, 01:34:07 pm »
-1
your last picture in that spoiler was what was happening and what we were complaining about... your people were without a doubt stabbing people completely hidden by the wall... no jumping required. I was there a couple of times.. my head no where near the top and a pike was hitting me several times and I was not the only one. Even standing back from the wall all you could see of the attacker was the pike so at no point was it coming over and just clipping the wall a little... at no point was it not thru the wall...

If you would like we can go to that map on a test server and you can stand behind it and I will use "magic" to hit you

yeah we had to fall back way from hiding behind the wall to group up before pushing back because of "magic piking" with no jumping, which exposed us more to cav and ranged.  When we complained you gave your generalized okay saying as long as they stabbed up at first and people just kept doing it.  A couple guys with pikes would laughingly stay there and just hold down block as magic pikes kept hitting their down block straight through the wall.  We had his same issue in jelbegi village and other battles fighting a similar merc pool.  If we ever see even one of our guys cheat like that we tell them to stop it, but it almost seems like its encouraged by the other side because its effective.
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Offline SquishMitten

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2013, 01:39:27 pm »
+1
I fail to see how this is not an abuse of the dodgy game mechanics
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Offline Canary

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Re: The battle of Nova Fenada...
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2013, 06:15:21 pm »
+3
your last picture in that spoiler was what was happening and what we were complaining about... your people were without a doubt stabbing people completely hidden by the wall... no jumping required. I was there a couple of times.. my head no where near the top and a pike was hitting me several times and I was not the only one. Even standing back from the wall all you could see of the attacker was the pike so at no point was it coming over and just clipping the wall a little... at no point was it not thru the wall...

If you would like we can go to that map on a test server and you can stand behind it and I will use "magic" to hit you

I understand what was happening now, and what you guys have been talking about. I didn't at first because I didn't notice it happening during the battle.

yeah we had to fall back way from hiding behind the wall to group up before pushing back because of "magic piking" with no jumping, which exposed us more to cav and ranged.  When we complained you gave your generalized okay saying as long as they stabbed up at first and people just kept doing it.  A couple guys with pikes would laughingly stay there and just hold down block as magic pikes kept hitting their down block straight through the wall.  We had his same issue in jelbegi village and other battles fighting a similar merc pool.  If we ever see even one of our guys cheat like that we tell them to stop it, but it almost seems like its encouraged by the other side because its effective.

[17:50:27] msg,[ADMIN][Canary_of_Chaos] PSA: stabbing straight through scene objects is not okay

SOUNDS LIKE I WAS ENDORSING IT, YEP.

But no, I tried to explain what I meant further which was difficult to do while keeping up with my team. I'm glad we cleared all this up overall in this thread, though.

I also tried to explain to the other admins present in admin-chat what constitutes the ruling, but didn't do a very good job there, either (it took me, what, three posts to find the best words/pictures for it in this thread?). Still, they could have taken initiative against players doing it and I wouldn't have stopped them.


If we ever see even one of our guys cheat like that we tell them to stop it, but it almost seems like its encouraged by the other side because its effective.

People were told in the attackers' teamspeak to stop. Aldogalus in particular called out one of his clanmates for it on at least one occasion.


In summary: people may have been abusing hitboxes to attack through a wall in the Nova Fenada battle. They were warned not to stab through the wall. I personally didn't see anyone attacking straight through the wall once I started watching. In the end no one got punished, if they were doing it.