1h Stab animation change... ?

[Lethwin Far Seeker]

First off, the shield animations have absolutely nothing to do with blocking. The animation is just for show.

I think a lot of issues with "attacks going through shields" has to do with the terrible shield implementation in m&b:

• It's much more difficult to judge a shield's blockable area than blocking with a weapon. When you block with a weapon, the weapon actually moves giving you visual indication of the area that it covers. A shield remains stationary and it is held in such a way that makes it easy to mis-judge the centerpoint of your character.
• A shield's surface area is completely different from its blockable area. (vs melee) No matter what shield you have, it covers the SAME exact area as manual blocking does. Again, it makes it easy to mis-judge the actual blockable area.

As far as crushthrough, I have a few theories:

• Shields are a pretty steep investment in points. Most classes have more points to spend and on average will have higher strength, making it easier to resist crushthrough.
• Shield weight makes you slow as hell, not to mention that you move turtle slow when going backwards with a shield up.
• When blocking, shielders tend to hold and manual players tap. A manual blocker will often move backwards faster because of this. Thereby dramatically reducing the speed bonus of the mauler. Because the mauler is doing less damage, it's easier to resist. Shielders with their turtle-slow, shield-up backwards movement, barely reduce the speed bonus.

Shields are still very useful utility items. You are practically invulnerable from the front unless you make a mistake. Still, I REALLY wish they would reduce the weight of shields somehow. Either a straight reduce or by having shield skill reduce the effective weight. The MASSIVE penalty they put on movement speed makes me not want to use them.

While it doesn't really address what Phew said as he pointed out in the following post (and I know exactly what you are talking about Phew- happened to me 3 or more times this night), I agree with every iota of text in this quote.  Hats off to you Rusty.

[MURDERTRON]

First off, the shield animations have absolutely nothing to do with blocking. The animation is just for show.

I think a lot of issues with "attacks going through shields" has to do with the terrible shield implementation in m&b:

• It's much more difficult to judge a shield's blockable area than blocking with a weapon. When you block with a weapon, the weapon actually moves giving you visual indication of the area that it covers. A shield remains stationary and it is held in such a way that makes it easy to mis-judge the centerpoint of your character.
• A shield's surface area is completely different from its blockable area. (vs melee) No matter what shield you have, it covers the SAME exact area as manual blocking does. Again, it makes it easy to mis-judge the actual blockable area.

As far as crushthrough, I have a few theories:

• Shields are a pretty steep investment in points. Most classes have more points to spend and on average will have higher strength, making it easier to resist crushthrough.
• Shield weight makes you slow as hell, not to mention that you move turtle slow when going backwards with a shield up.
• When blocking, shielders tend to hold and manual players tap. A manual blocker will often move backwards faster because of this. Thereby dramatically reducing the speed bonus of the mauler. Because the mauler is doing less damage, it's easier to resist. Shielders with their turtle-slow, shield-up backwards movement, barely reduce the speed bonus.

Shields are still very useful utility items. You are practically invulnerable from the front unless you make a mistake. Still, I REALLY wish they would reduce the weight of shields somehow. Either a straight reduce or by having shield skill reduce the effective weight. The MASSIVE penalty they put on movement speed makes me not want to use them.

I'm playing shielder this gen, getting a good KD and valor every other round while half asleep.  If you're too slow, stop crutching strength so much.

I'm really surprised how many shielders waste their time with IF and WM.

[Phew]

I'm playing shielder this gen, getting a good KD and valor every other round while half asleep.  If you're too slow, stop crutching strength so much.

I'm really surprised how many shielders waste their time with IF and WM.

Considering that nearly every death for a shielder is the result of a nudge, kick, teamhit, or projectile, IF is just as important for a shielder as any other melee. But you also need high athletics due to your shorter reach and to avoid maulers. And you pretty much need to hybrid polearms or throwing to have a chance against cavalry, so you need WM.

Basically, shielders need to be lvl 33+ to not have a major deficiency, much like archers. Pure 2h and pole are pretty much set at lvl 30 (just bring a cheap shield for ranged).

[MURDERTRON]

Considering that nearly every death for a shielder is the result of a nudge, kick, teamhit, or projectile, IF is just as important for a shielder as any other melee. But you also need high athletics due to your shorter reach and to avoid maulers. And you pretty much need to hybrid polearms or throwing to have a chance against cavalry, so you need WM.

Basically, shielders need to be lvl 33+ to not have a major deficiency, much like archers. Pure 2h and pole are pretty much set at lvl 30 (just bring a cheap shield for ranged).

Footwork will save you from kicks and nudges.  I've been winning over 50% of challenges from cav, that's how good the 1h stab is now.

I would further deconstruct your post, but it would be a waste of time.  All I'm saying is stop going 24/15 or 21/15 and then complaining you're too slow.  I was getting valor consistently at level 24 with 3 shield skill.  It's not nearly as big of an investment as you'd think.  Cavalry players have to invest more points and gold for a much smaller payoff.

[CrazyCracka420]

Having a shield makes you a lot less agile than a 2h hero without a shield.  Even with a sword it can be hard to get in range (without being too predictable) if you're trying to 1v1 a 2h'er with decent agility.  Kicks have a really large area of effect and the effects last longer than the animation shows (i.e. the foot is still hanging in the air, not actually kicking and still will stagger you if you come within 3 feet of it). 

Kicks weren't a problem in native, or before they made the kick hitbox be about 3 feet on either side of the leg/foot.  If I'm trying to hit someone from the front and they are kicking (even if I'm off to the side in front of them) I'm likely going to get hit with the kick.

[Matey]

Footwork will save you from kicks and nudges.  I've been winning over 50% of challenges from cav, that's how good the 1h stab is now.

I would further deconstruct your post, but it would be a waste of time.  All I'm saying is stop going 24/15 or 21/15 and then complaining you're too slow.  I was getting valor consistently at level 24 with 3 shield skill.  It's not nearly as big of an investment as you'd think.  Cavalry players have to invest more points and gold for a much smaller payoff.

Step 1: invest 3 points into riding
Step 2: get a rouncey
Step 3: be a dickless coward who only ever blindsides people from behind.
Step 4: profit.

Sounds easier than doing well as a shielder to me!

[Gurnisson]

Step 1: invest 3 points into riding
Step 2: get a rouncey
Step 3: be a dickless coward who only ever blindsides people from behind.
Step 4: profit.

Sounds easier than doing well as a shielder to me!

3 riding and a rouncey is shit. 3 shield skill and a round shield is really good. As cavalry, any less than 5 points invested makes for a bad build. As shielder, any more than 3 or 4 shield skill makes for wasted points.

[Phew]

Footwork will save you from kicks and nudges.  I've been winning over 50% of challenges from cav, that's how good the 1h stab is now.

I would further deconstruct your post, but it would be a waste of time.  All I'm saying is stop going 24/15 or 21/15 and then complaining you're too slow.  I was getting valor consistently at level 24 with 3 shield skill.  It's not nearly as big of an investment as you'd think.  Cavalry players have to invest more points and gold for a much smaller payoff.

As Jona pointed out in another thread, athletics actually makes you more likely to be kicked, not less. The faster you move, the more likely you are to end up in the giant stuncone that lasts over a second. Most of the people complaining about shield weight slowing you down are agility builds anyway (myself included), so I don't know why you keep talking about strength builds.

The valor argument isn't relevant to anything; the current system rewards people for staying alive and being near the fight; actually killing people has a very small overall contribution. Anyone with a shield is a low priority target, so they can stay near the action and not get targetted. That doesn't mean shields are awesome, just that the point/valor system is flawed.

[MURDERTRON]

As Jona pointed out in another thread, athletics actually makes you more likely to be kicked, not less. The faster you move, the more likely you are to end up in the giant stuncone that lasts over a second. Most of the people complaining about shield weight slowing you down are agility builds anyway (myself included), so I don't know why you keep talking about strength builds.

The valor argument isn't relevant to anything; the current system rewards people for staying alive and being near the fight; actually killing people has a very small overall contribution. Anyone with a shield is a low priority target, so they can stay near the action and not get targetted. That doesn't mean shields are awesome, just that the point/valor system is flawed.

Why are you face hugging, being predictable and getting kicked?  I don't stay that close to 2h cause I don't want to get hilt slashed.  I don't stay close to other 1h cause steel picks are short.  I don't want to say you're a bad player, but you sure post like one.

Also, Matey, play a cav gen.  I gave it up after the double nerf to
bumps and heavy lances.  You'll find the sudden emergence of Hoplites, the new 1h stab and the staggering amount of dickless crossbowers quite frustrating.  And even people who use rounceys rarely have only 3 riding.

[Phew]

Why are you face hugging, being predictable and getting kicked?  I don't stay that close to 2h cause I don't want to get hilt slashed.  I don't stay close to other 1h cause steel picks are short.  I don't want to say you're a bad player, but you sure post like one.

It doesn't take a mind reader to predict an opponent's location within +/- 30 deg (all that's required to land a kick). And the kick range seems to be nearly a meter, so most 1-handers have the be within that to land a hit. That's not facehugging; that's just normal spacing for a 1h.

Also, rule of thumb on calling someone a bad player; if you are hundreds of spots below them on the duel ladder, don't. Not saying duel ranking means anything, just that San/Saul/etc have earned the right to call people bad, and the rest of us haven't.

[Kafein]

A 2h with the same build and armor will always move faster and be more agile than you. As a shielder it's very rare to not fight with footwork heavily tilted against you.

[Konrax]

It's why I have 8 athletics and still feel slow

[MURDERTRON]

It's why I have 8 athletics and still feel slow

No, that's because you have a shit ton of armor.

[San]

Before, when circling around an opponent properly, you could avoid most kicks, but it would be a challenge to get to their back so they couldn't block. Now, it almost counters that way of moving, so it makes it pretty difficult when the animation looks exactly the same and you move that way out of habit or try to close in after dodging because the animation looked like it already missed.

Carrying a 6-7kg shield right now is close to losing 1 ath when wearing the lighter shields, and a little more than that with the heavier ones. I think going back to realistic weights for shields (assuming weight is kg) would fix the problem. Quickly looking over the native shield weights and they seem fine to me (maybe make the heavier ones a bit heavier), varying between 2-5kg.

http://mountandblade.wikia.com/wiki/Shields


Also, cav is fine, coming from a guy who played on a rouncey with normal lance even after the bump "nerf" (made it easier to bump stab as a side effect).

I think 1h stab is tougher to pull off than hoplite stab. I perform much better with the stabless liuyedao. I think the 1h stab "problem" is isolated to the side sword stats. It should return to 28p/28c with 100 speed for now IMO. Also, there shouldn't be some swords that get +2 on stabs and others with +3 for no reason.

[CrazyCracka420]

Kind of a side note here, but the horse bump nerf has both saved me and hurt me dozens upon dozens of times.  Sometimes I'll get stuck on one person if the elevation is right (but doesn't look too steep) and will get me killed (yeah a person is going to stop a horse from moving forward...good call crpg).  Other times it's saved me where I'll bump/lance the first guy and I'll slow down so much that I'm able to steer away from the pikeman/spearman who was waiting behind the first infantry guy.  I gotta imagine those guys are like "WTF"?

I personally think the bumps were better before the nerf, and weren't OP.  It's pretty ridiculous if I'm riding at top speed on a courser and can get routinely stuck if two infantry guys are basically right next to each other (I'll come to a complete stop on the second guy).  Or will get stuck/reared by one person if there's any sort of elevation.