Author Topic: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege  (Read 6990 times)

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Offline Keshian

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2013, 02:38:02 pm »
-1
Sorry but it was the sieges of almerrad about 6 months ago.

edit: I don't really want to make you guys hate us. I just tend to try to prove people wrong whenever possible and most of the FCC's who post are the type who refuse to be wrong. (not a fun combo)

Sounds like you are talking into a mirror.
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Offline Rhalzo

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2013, 06:11:26 pm »
+5
Sounds like you are talking into a mirror.

Kesh is a mirror. Now that's a fuckin' M. Night Shamalongadingdong movie twist for you right there.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2013, 08:49:53 pm »
+2
makes me laugh.. we get accused and vilified for things we do not actually do.... People actually do them against us and people shrug. Very confusing
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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2013, 09:20:42 pm »
+1
makes me laugh.. we get accused and vilified for things we do not actually do.... People actually do them against us and people shrug. Very confusing

Correction: YOU DID do it. Maybe not now, but the way you "cobble" weak armies that aren't real armies might be like that.(Justification: why waste our real gear on a first wave battle? BTW this is Fine, but just saying)

I have had Kesh, in the Ahmerrad Sieges back in the day, talk about the amount of extra shit they brought just for bombing the fief. Course, I don't care one way or another cause I got paid, but it has happened(as a after battle loot way).

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Offline Keshian

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2013, 09:55:03 pm »
+1
but the way you "cobble" weak armies that aren't real armies might be like that.(Justification: why waste our real gear on a first wave battle? BTW this is Fine, but just saying)
I have had Kesh, in the Ahmerrad Sieges back in the day, talk about the amount of extra shit they brought just for bombing the fief.

Annnnnd no, I did not.  I did mention using up our leftover gear from the previous battles in the area in the first wave with our non-loomed gear, +1-+2 gear in the second wave and saving the +3 gear in the third and 4th waves.  We do the same thing with every siege, absentee fief owner or not - just like when we took ichamur and the chaos castles, because you dont want to give defenders scads of +1 gear they can reuse for the follow up attacks and make it easier to defend (what lost legion doesn't realize is they fully equipped ichamur for whenever hospitallers attack it, even more so with the tax money from selling goods there - we probably would have had some issues with replacing high end gear otherwise).  That has nothing to do with item bombing - everything to do with defender's advantage with the looting system and why we apply to all attacks regardless of whether the gear is taken out or not.

We have never transferred gear into a fief after we attacked it to make it item bugged (specifically against the rules (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-rules/   5) Itembombing a fief. Dropping a lot of items in an enemy fief is not allowed. It causes incredibly long equipment lists for the fief.

Now it looks like lost legion has done that, but since you love to hate us you write it off, while accusing us still of doing the same, when we never have and never tried to.  Every siege of ahmerrad we had less than 100 item types.  In fact I think every siege we have ever done has had less than 100 item types (we have done a lot - Derchios, Ahmerrad, Ichamur, Dhirim, Senuzgda, Kelredan, Ismirala castle, Curaw, Reyvadin, Sungetche castle, probably a couple more i forgot).  Yes, I really like teleporting fief owners who don't know to transfer a fief to a faction member before leaving it, and that is part of the game - you lock in the gold and the gear and save yourself 2/3rds of what it would have cost you to take the castle/city (an enormously expensive thing to do for the many people here posting who have never taken a castle or city themselves) because you recover most of your gear used in a  +1 state ready to be used in future battles instead of having to buy new fully equipped set of gear.


Anyway I sent pm to Harald, cmp, and meow about the matter - they are taking care of it and looking into who did the transfer.

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Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2013, 10:05:15 pm »
+1
Annnnnd no, I did not.  I did mention using up our leftover gear from the previous battles in the area in the first wave with our non-loomed gear, +1-+2 gear in the second wave and saving the +3 gear in the third and 4th waves.  We do the same thing with every siege, absentee fief owner or not - just like when we took ichamur and the chaos castles, because you dont want to give defenders scads of +1 gear they can reuse for the follow up attacks and make it easier to defend (what lost legion doesn't realize is they fully equipped ichamur for whenever hospitallers attack it, even more so with the tax money from selling goods there - we probably would have had some issues with replacing high end gear otherwise).  That has nothing to do with item bombing - everything to do with defender's advantage with the looting system and why we apply to all attacks regardless of whether the gear is taken out or not.

We have never transferred gear into a fief after we attacked it to make it item bugged (specifically against the rules (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-rules/   5) Itembombing a fief. Dropping a lot of items in an enemy fief is not allowed. It causes incredibly long equipment lists for the fief.

Now it looks like lost legion has done that, but since you love to hate us you write it off, while accusing us still of doing the same, when we never have and never tried to.  Every siege of ahmerrad we had less than 100 item types.  In fact I think every siege we have ever done has had less than 100 item types (we have done a lot - Derchios, Ahmerrad, Ichamur, Dhirim, Senuzgda, Kelredan, Ismirala castle, Curaw, Reyvadin, Sungetche castle, probably a couple more i forgot).  Yes, I really like teleporting fief owners who don't know to transfer a fief to a faction member before leaving it, and that is part of the game - you lock in the gold and the gear and save yourself 2/3rds of what it would have cost you to take the castle/city (an enormously expensive thing to do for the many people here posting who have never taken a castle or city themselves) because you recover most of your gear used in a  +1 state ready to be used in future battles instead of having to buy new fully equipped set of gear.


Anyway I sent pm to Harald, cmp, and meow about the matter - they are taking care of it and looking into who did the transfer.

Talking about junk gear in armies. You did do it at Ahmerrad. You fuking said it over TS. (Not exactly this way but: Use everything so that some is broken and some not when the fief gets it so they have more. I fought in the later waves and not the first.) Jack said it as well. There were others who also made mention of that fact.
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2013, 10:10:59 pm »
+1
as he stated. We attack with lesser used gear (from other attacks... still the same stuff we use just +1 variety that has seen one fight) in the first wave or two. It is just good business and not malicious. Throwing what you know will be a fodder wave in +3 is just not strategically sound. You are only making your enemy stronger.

It is not against the rules and if they were doing this to us I would not complain at all.

HUGE difference is tossing random shit in the fief prior to attacking it and attacking with +1 gear you already used once.

Same thing with offering rewards to mercs who do well in a fight and paying mercs on the other team to switch sides because people are afraid to fight them.

Odd how we are still the villains and have done neither.
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Offline Zaren

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2013, 10:16:18 pm »
+1
if I understand correctly, another faction was able to transfer gear into your fief without the fief allowing transfers?
EDIT----nm anders told me u can transfer without the fief allowing it.....


sounds more like a dev problem than anything else
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:23:18 pm by Zaren »

Offline Lt_Anders

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2013, 10:25:40 pm »
0
if I understand correctly, another faction was able to transfer gear into your fief without the fief allowing transfers?

Correct. It is a bug/exploit within the strat system. While players require transfers to be open, fiefs do not.

@Bale: Yea see, kinda what I'm talking about though. Bringing in LOTS of weak gear and throwing at the fief KNOWING it can't be removed(aka involuntary Item bomb), compared with this which is voluntary(and Illegal) Item bomb. Though since they raided you and took it all back, I think you were lucky.

Though, Honestly, I've actually sent gear to the wrong people before in my faction. That was a stupid move on my part and could(could) have happened here. (BTW MATEY USE THE DAMN SCRIPTS YOU STRAT SCRUB).

Personally: I like the no open window transfer option for fiefs(helps me out a lot), and they should just either fix the item limits, or allow fief owner to REMOVE small item(50< of item) amounts even during sieges.

BTW doesn't this bring back memories. EDIT: Also don't take it as a bad statement regarding this. I just found that while searching for the Ahmerrad seiges.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 10:29:12 pm by Lt_Anders »
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Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2013, 10:52:42 pm »
+1
one of strategy and if done against us no one will complain. makes no sense throwing away awesome gear in a whittle down attack..

The other clearly against the rules.

As I said we get vilified for rules we have not broken and they get.. Well maybe they did it on accident. Really?
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Offline Canary

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2013, 11:00:58 pm »
+3
as he stated. We attack with lesser used gear (from other attacks... still the same stuff we use just +1 variety that has seen one fight) in the first wave or two. It is just good business and not malicious.

Not malicious? The way you add more items than you would otherwise to your army and time your attacks so that people don't have time to pull gear out makes this strategy incredibly detrimental to quality gameplay; it is not a good use of game mechanics, it is cruelty to your opponent.

It is not against the rules and if they were doing this to us I would not complain at all.

HUGE difference is tossing random shit in the fief prior to attacking it and attacking with +1 gear you already used once.

Things like multiple kinds of zero-slot weapons, three tiers of the same weapon, dozens or more of armors (head and body) were used against Ahmerrad when it was already having problems with the item bug. There is indeed a huge difference between defenders getting many crummy items that aren't very good that are difficult to get rid of in-game and defenders getting a handful of decent item types in very small stacks. (*not that it justifies an intentional item-bomb, though)

It's not against the rules, but in a case like this some of the things the FCC has done have had a worse impact on the game in general and specifically the defense's ability to select items than adding a small handful of almost entirely weapons in low quantities, which is apparently what you're complaining about here (which isn't to say it's not a valid complaint: if someone broke the rules it should be addressed).

The item-bombing rule is unfortunately extremely vague and hard to enforce (normal admins don't even have access to relevant information needed): what constitutes "a lot" of items? How do you determine the culprit's intent to grief in this fashion, even it it was your enemy who did it? (while it seems very unlikely, a mistake is still a possibility)

Correction: YOU DID do it. Maybe not now, but the way you "cobble" weak armies that aren't real armies might be like that.(Justification: why waste our real gear on a first wave battle? BTW this is Fine, but just saying)

I have had Kesh, in the Ahmerrad Sieges back in the day, talk about the amount of extra shit they brought just for bombing the fief. Course, I don't care one way or another cause I got paid, but it has happened(as a after battle loot way).
Annnnnd no, I did not.  I did mention using up our leftover gear from the previous battles in the area in the first wave with our non-loomed gear, +1-+2 gear in the second wave and saving the +3 gear in the third and 4th waves.

4th wave was full of varying levels of gear, you are a liar. Screenshots available if needed.

We do the same thing with every siege, absentee fief owner or not - just like when we took ichamur and the chaos castles, because you dont want to give defenders scads of +1 gear they can reuse for the follow up attacks and make it easier to defend (what lost legion doesn't realize is they fully equipped ichamur for whenever hospitallers attack it, even more so with the tax money from selling goods there - we probably would have had some issues with replacing high end gear otherwise).  That has nothing to do with item bombing - everything to do with defender's advantage with the looting system and why we apply to all attacks regardless of whether the gear is taken out or not.

...

Yes, I really like teleporting fief owners who don't know to transfer a fief to a faction member before leaving it, and that is part of the game - you lock in the gold and the gear and save yourself 2/3rds of what it would have cost you to take the castle/city (an enormously expensive thing to do for the many people here posting who have never taken a castle or city themselves) because you recover most of your gear used in a  +1 state ready to be used in future battles instead of having to buy new fully equipped set of gear.

Your problem is that you feel as though losing gear to the intended game system entitles you to get it back. It's a bad attitude that makes for horrible gameplay when you do what you can to take advantage of bad mechanics such as attack timing, the transfer system and item-slot limits that don't allow defense to have a well-sorted gear list.

Saying defense is easier and that they don't deserve anymore advantages doesn't justify attackers using incredibly cheap tactics - and you can bet you'll hear flak for it (which you're also bound to complain about).

We have never transferred gear into a fief after we attacked it to make it item bugged (specifically against the rules (http://forum.meleegaming.com/strategus-general-discussion/strategus-rules/   5) Itembombing a fief. Dropping a lot of items in an enemy fief is not allowed. It causes incredibly long equipment lists for the fief.

You did do it before the rule was in place, however, and people remember that. You also skirt the rule by stocking attacking armies more full of slots than you need to.

Now it looks like lost legion has done that, but since you love to hate us you write it off, while accusing us still of doing the same, when we never have and never tried to.  Every siege of ahmerrad we had less than 100 item types.  In fact I think every siege we have ever done has had less than 100 item types (we have done a lot - Derchios, Ahmerrad, Ichamur, Dhirim, Senuzgda, Kelredan, Ismirala castle, Curaw, Reyvadin, Sungetche castle, probably a couple more i forgot).


Anyway I sent pm to Harald, cmp, and meow about the matter - they are taking care of it and looking into who did the transfer.

You complained about getting 17 new item types in a fief, a handful of which are ideal for siege defense and as a faction you are literally the reason the item-bombing rule even exists and you guys wonder why people think you're the bad guy? On top of, apparently, denying ever having item-bombed (maybe you just mean before it was a rule and left that qualifier out? Incredibly shady concealment of facts. SPEAKING OF WHICH: Sure, 99 is "less than 100 item types", but you've attacked with exactly that amount before)

Basically, I can't understand how you guys are so surprised to hear shit about it when you bring this issue up.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:12:57 pm by Canary »

Offline BaleOhay

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2013, 11:22:22 pm »
0
one is against the rules the other is not.
Arguing that it is mean is is not really helpful to this conversation.


Also armors do not count towards the item limit so that as a complaint should be squished.

I will even give you a nice quote and sum it up at the same time.

Bank manager crashed the party and ate all the cookies.. No one really wanted him there and eating all the cookies is just mean.. But nothing against it.

The guests were so upset (they really love cookies) that they go and rob the bank.

When they stand before the judge using "but he ate the cookies" as an excuse is just as good as "its mean and made defense harder."

« Last Edit: August 11, 2013, 11:38:38 pm by BaleOhay »
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Offline Keshian

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 11:58:00 pm »
-4
Not malicious? The way you add more items than you would otherwise to your army and time your attacks so that people don't have time to pull gear out makes this strategy incredibly detrimental to quality gameplay; it is not a good use of game mechanics, it is cruelty to your opponent.

Things like multiple kinds of zero-slot weapons, three tiers of the same weapon, dozens or more of armors (head and body) were used against Ahmerrad when it was already having problems with the item bug. There is indeed a huge difference between defenders getting many crummy items that aren't very good that are difficult to get rid of in-game and defenders getting a handful of decent item types in very small stacks. (*not that it justifies an intentional item-bomb, though)


4th wave was full of varying levels of gear, you are a liar. Screenshots available if needed.

YOU SIR ARE A LIAR, you pretentious prick calling me a liar.  I would love screenshots, also 4th wave was our attempt to take it - had our absolute best gear - I know for an absolute fact you are full of it in this statement.  We made sure to have the most ideal gear selection of any battle we had ever had up to that point in that fourth wave in order to take it.  I know you supported and even were present in ts when the illegal fief transfer in Ahmerrad was being discussed, in your very non-neutral role as head NA admin, so I'm sure this is how you justified supporting it.  Also, armor has no effect on the bug - the fact there was varying levels of armor is indicative of using up gear from previous battles and not an attempt at item bugging.

Your problem is that you feel as though losing gear to the intended game system entitles you to get it back. It's a bad attitude that makes for horrible gameplay when you do what you can to take advantage of bad mechanics such as attack timing, the transfer system and item-slot limits that don't allow defense to have a well-sorted gear list.

Saying defense is easier and that they don't deserve anymore advantages doesn't justify attackers using incredibly cheap tactics - and you can bet you'll hear flak for it (which you're also bound to complain about).

Wow you are pretentious.  This game has limitations on getting gear and gold and trying to get gear back as attackers is now bad "gameplay" because its not how you - one of the biggest turtling factions in the game, almost only defending wants to play?

You complained about getting 17 new item types in a fief, a handful of which are ideal for siege defense and as a faction you are literally the reason the item-bombing rule even exists and you guys wonder why people think you're the bad guy? On top of, apparently, denying ever having item-bombed (maybe you just mean before it was a rule and left that qualifier out? Incredibly shady concealment of facts. SPEAKING OF WHICH: Sure, 99 is "less than 100 item types", but you've attacked with exactly that amount before)

Basically, I can't understand how you guys are so surprised to hear shit about it when you bring this issue up.

Handful - ideal?  wtf are you talking about they were all detrimental negative loomed items in small quantities to item bomb - do you know the item bombers that they tell you some of it was to our benefit?  Lol never attacked with exactly 99 items so 6 months later I could say we always attacked with under 100 item types.

 Man, canary i didn't realize how much vehement hatred you had for us until you accused me of lying and made up some bullshit and gave us some pretentious flak - you are nowhere near the unbiased head admin we need in NA for addressing problems like this, its why i sent the pms to eu and not you.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 12:05:21 am by Keshian »
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Offline Sandersson Jankins

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2013, 12:05:24 am »
+3
The whole shit-slinging thing in this thread is stupid, so I'm going to contribute!

Nah, but for real guys, stop saying that FCC has item bombed. That term should be reserved for pure item transfers before a battle. What they've done in the past is not illegal- and I wouldn't even consider it that under-handed, to be honest. Strategus isn't all about having completely fair, honorable fights. Sometimes you just don't like the guys on the other side of the monitor very much, and sometimes you just want to put them in the ground even if you don't mind them. Sending an army with more weapon types than is necessary, or sending an army with some mis-matched or excess gear first is a great way to get rid of the shit as well as an effective softening of your target in certain circumstances.

This whole "FCC are evil because they use too many item types ablooblooblooabloobloobloo" thing is really silly. You shouldn't dislike FCC because of this.

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As an afterthought; if it isn't against the rules, and doesn't fall into a category of extremely obvious and blatant game/engine exploit, you shouldn't be rude to people about it. Paying good mercs to fight on your side is part of the game; why are people upset about it? Why would you call it pathetic when the currency in question is GOLD IN A VIDEO GAME? Shit, I might do the same thing. Why do I need more looms or upkeep money? I've got more than enough and I've played for less time than plenty of people. You do what you gotta do. Sure, the argument "BUT YOU ARENT EVEN HAVING FUN" or "YOU CARE MORE ABOUT WINNING THAN HAVING FUN" is going to get thrown at me a few times. But comon, a large part of having fun in multiplayer games that are even somewhat competitive in nature is winning! Yeah, you can have fun while losing, and you should. Still, it is almost always more fun to win than lose; the only thing more satisfying in this game than winning a large strat battle in which neither side had an obvious advantage is doing the same thing while joking, talking shit, committing general acts of shenanigans in teamspeak with your fellow internet knights.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 12:13:44 am by Sandersson Jankins »
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Offline Matey

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Re: Transfering garbage to a fief under siege
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 12:31:50 am »
+4
Yeesh. I want to point out a couple of things here.

Transfering items to a fief when it is already under siege and unable to remove those items is breaking the rules.
Attacking a fief with your leftover gear and them getting tons of items is not against the rules and is going to happen all the damn time.

Also, something important here... The only reason Ahmerrad had any item problems is because the owner got caught with his pants down and sent to EU multiple times. If he had stayed in his fief he could have organized the gear and they never would have had a problem no matter how much leftover gear they looted from the attacking army. So who do you blame for the fief piling up extra gear? the guys who are trying their best to take the fief or the guy who wasn't there to handle his fief?

In this situation I was there to sort the gear out, in this case I didn't expect to be able to pull the gear out after the upcoming battle and so I intentionally put in less item types than usual so that my fief would be OK for a couple waves before the gear bug showed up... BUT the enemy intentionally transferred a bunch more items in small quantities (and likely all +0 or worse but I couldn't check) which meant that if I hadn't been able to get the gear out in time then we would have had bugged out gear for the next fight.

Last thing to mention... and it has been said before more or less: "We hate FCC and think they are meanie heads" does not make it acceptable to break the rules or look the other way when people break the rules.