All one handed axes are trash

[Palurgee]

EDIT: could an admin move this to game balance discussion at some point?

I'm not at all satisfied with one-handed weapons in cRPG, particularly the axes. At the moment, weapon speed increases as length and weight decrease. This is fine and well, but the increment is very little, if not absent. Here is an example -- the "One Handed Axe:"

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

weapon length: 71
weight: 1
difficulty: 7
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 71
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 30 cut
slots: 1
Bonus against Shield
price: 1582

Now lets look at another one-handed weapon, the "Broad Short Sword:"

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

weapon length: 86
weight: 1.3
difficulty: 8
speed rating: 100
weapon length: 86
thrust damage: 27 pierce
swing damage: 30 cut
slots: 0
price: 6336

The Broad Short Sword is longer, heavier, faster, has more attack directions, equal damage, and occupies no slots (and this is AFTER the nerf). So why would you use the axe? Ah, for the bonus against shields! Congratulations, you have broken your enemy's shield and you are now fighting him on fair grounds! Except for the fact that your weapon's stats are complete garbage. Now; you may think, "palurgee, the Broad Short Sword is nearly four times as expensive as the One Handed Axe!" Well, perhaps I should introduce a weapon a bit closer in the price range to the One Handed Axe. Please open the One Handed Axe spoiler and then the spoiler below.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

weapon length: 70
weight: 2
difficulty: 9
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 70
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 25 blunt
slots: 1
Knockdown
price: 2990

This little bastard is a point away from being the same length as the One Handed Axe, yet it has more speed and twice as much weight, a better damage type, knockdown, and only at the price of 99 more upkeep. Things look grim for our One Handed Axe friend. It is a step away from being useless in all but breaking shields. Perhaps we should take a look at another, more popular, axe. Let's see how it stacks up against other one-handed weapons. The "Broad One Handed Battle Axe."

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

weapon length: 73
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 12
speed rating: 98
weapon length: 73
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 35 cut
slots: 1
Bonus against Shield
Secondary Mode
price: 7803

That'll do, broad one handed battle axe. But wait -- what's this? Right next to the Broad One Handed Battle Axe, The Elite Scimitar!

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

weapon length: 100
weight: 1.5
difficulty: 11
speed rating: 99
weapon length: 100
thrust damage: 0 pierce
swing damage: 31 cut
slots: 1
price: 8116

Looks like the axe has been outplayed again. The Elite Scimitar is faster, much longer, and equal in weight. Fortunately our axe has an additional four damage and bonus versus shields which almost makes up for its otherwise trash stats.

Let's look at one-handed axes from a realistic perspective. A one-handed axe was a weapon designed to whack and wallop very quickly. Why was it able to do this? Two reasons:

1. It is very short
2. It is unbalanced

Axes, unlike swords, do not have much weight in the hilt. I even threw together this quick picture showing the approximate center of gravity on an axe:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

When swung, the swinger's arm gives it speed and then gravity packs with it a harder punch.

So, here is my idea for most, if not all, one-handed axes and some other one-handers.

Increase their speed dramatically and make them unbalanced. Thank you for reading, please give feedback.

[Ronin]

An increase to weight would be required as well.

But I honestly do not think that an increase to speed would be logical. Since it's center of gravity, it is harder to start the swing; therefore slower to prepare the attack not faster. I think a new damage type suited for axes would solve the problem with them. They must be more effective to armor, while not being as effective as a... lets say a pick. Ignoring 25% of armor could be quite nice.

[Palurgee]

An increase to weight would be required as well.

But I honestly do not think that an increase to speed would be logical. Since it's center of gravity, it is harder to start the swing; therefore slower to prepare the attack not faster. I think a new damage type suited for axes would solve the problem with them. They must be more effective to armor, while not being as effective as a... lets say a pick. Ignoring 25% of armor could be quite nice.

I was looking for some sources online and found this guy. The first 60 seconds of this video definitely reflect my ideas for what axes should be like in cRPG.

[MrChubbikins]

I feel like at this point in the game the only viable 1h weapons are picks and maces, which is depressing when there are so many 1h weapons to choose from.

[CrazyCracka420]

I feel like at this point in the game the only viable 1h weapons are picks and maces, which is depressing when there are so many 1h weapons to choose from.

Disagreed.  It depends entirely on your power strike (and active WPF, to a lesser extent) versus the armor and total HP the guy you're facing has. 

With 7 power strike and 125 WPF in 1h, my Masterwork Knightly Arming Sword is a beast versus anyone except the heaviest armored/healthed foes.  33+cut is no joke versus people in light heavy, or high-medium armor. 

In strat battles, blunt and pierce weapons are obviously the go to weapons over even the high cut weapons, due to people having such high armor values.  But even using some of the 34-36cut 1h weapons I still do pretty good damage due to my 7 power strike.

[Palurgee]

Disagreed.  It depends entirely on your power strike (and active WPF, to a lesser extent) versus the armor and total HP the guy you're facing has. 

With 7 power strike and 125 WPF in 1h, my Masterwork Knightly Arming Sword is a beast versus anyone except the heaviest armored/healthed foes.  33+cut is no joke versus people in light heavy, or high-medium armor. 

In strat battles, blunt and pierce weapons are obviously the go to weapons over even the high cut weapons, due to people having such high armor values.  But even using some of the 34-36cut 1h weapons I still do pretty good damage due to my 7 power strike.

That's what I think the problem with one-handers are -- you are very limited. To be effective against high-end armor (and even some medium armors) you need at least one of these choices:

A) a strength build
B) a loomed sword
C) a blunt/pierce weapon

One handed weapons are easily trumped by most two-handers and polearms without a shield (as most are faster, heavier, and longer). As a result you get a sort of vicious cycle; to increase your strength, you gain damage but lose some effectiveness with a shield. To increase agility, you lose damage but gain some effectiveness with a shield.

Also, there is very little variety in the one-handed section. Lets try to find the most varied one-handed weapons out there. Provided the weapons we compare have a gold value above 1.5k, this is probably what you'll find:

~35 difference in length
~5 difference in damage
a different damage type
~3 difference in speed
bonus versus shields
knockdown
secondary mode
~2 difference in weight

On the other hand(s), take the two most different double-handed weapons. Provided they are above a 1.5k gold value, this is probably what differences you'll find:

~120 difference in length
~25 difference in damage
a different damage type
~30 difference in speed
bonus versus shields
unbalanced
crushthrough
knockdown
can't use on horseback
~8 difference in weight
secondary mode
cannot be sheathed

In short, one-handed weapons are shitty and similar compared to polearms and two-handers.

[MrChubbikins]

Disagreed.  It depends entirely on your power strike (and active WPF, to a lesser extent) versus the armor and total HP the guy you're facing has. 

With 7 power strike and 125 WPF in 1h, my Masterwork Knightly Arming Sword is a beast versus anyone except the heaviest armored/healthed foes.  33+cut is no joke versus people in light heavy, or high-medium armor. 

In strat battles, blunt and pierce weapons are obviously the go to weapons over even the high cut weapons, due to people having such high armor values.  But even using some of the 34-36cut 1h weapons I still do pretty good damage due to my 7 power strike.

I can understand where you are coming from but whats the point of a Knightly Arming Sword when not on horse back when you have something like a Steel Pick which is faster, glances a whole lot less, deals more damage and you really don't need weapon mastery at all.

[Ronin]

Thrust is your friend

[Gurnisson]

A) a strength build
B) a loomed sword
C) a blunt/pierce weapon

I had a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar, and while it is weaker (no denying that), it's definitely useable with okay footwork.

[CrazyCracka420]

I can understand where you are coming from but whats the point of a Knightly Arming Sword when not on horse back when you have something like a Steel Pick which is faster, glances a whole lot less, deals more damage and you really don't need weapon mastery at all.

My justification for using it (even when I only had 6 power strike) not on horseback (which I never use it from, or very rarely) is this:

It's a jack of all trades type of weapon (really this can be said for most of the reasons why someone uses a 1h sword over other 1h weapons):

It's not going to deal the most damage against heavily armored foes, but it will still deal moderate damage (compared to something like a warhammer or steel/military pick)
It's not going to be the fastest weapon, but it's going to be faster than most weapons being used (at least compared to 2h/poles)
Swords are one of the longest 1h weapons, so that is a big reason why I (and other 1h's) choose to use a sword.  If you hit the enemy with your sword (even a weaker hit than what you woulda done with a blunt/pierce weapon) at least you're getting some damage in.  Lots of times you wouldn't have been in range for the shorter blunt/pierce weapons to have hit the enemy.  Also when you hit the enemy, you stop them from hitting you.  Using a 1h sword you're able to kind of control the flow of battle and keep your enemy at bay easier than with a very short blunt/pierce weapon.

[Ronin]

My justification for using it (even when I only had 6 power strike) not on horseback (which I never use it from, or very rarely) is this:

It's a jack of all trades type of weapon (really this can be said for most of the reasons why someone uses a 1h sword over other 1h weapons):

It's not going to deal the most damage against heavily armored foes, but it will still deal moderate damage (compared to something like a warhammer or steel/military pick). 
It's not going to be the fastest weapon, but it's going to be faster than most weapons being used (at least compared to 2h/poles)
Swords are one of the longest 1h weapons, so that is a big reason why I (and other 1h's) choose to use a sword.

and thrust. THRUST!

[CrazyCracka420]

and thrust. THRUST!

Right, and thrust (which is nice for heavily armored foes).  Thrust on 1h swords is pretty shitty though

Using an elite scimi with 5 power strike is really only something a sadist would do.   That's really pushing it.

[Palurgee]

I had a 15/18 build with a non-loomed elite scimitar, and while it is weaker (no denying that), it's definitely useable with okay footwork.

Against medium and light armor, sure. High-end armor? I'm sure you got a lot of glance hits.

[MrChubbikins]

My justification for using it (even when I only had 6 power strike) not on horseback (which I never use it from, or very rarely) is this:

It's a jack of all trades type of weapon (really this can be said for most of the reasons why someone uses a 1h sword over other 1h weapons):

It's not going to deal the most damage against heavily armored foes, but it will still deal moderate damage (compared to something like a warhammer or steel/military pick). 
It's not going to be the fastest weapon, but it's going to be faster than most weapons being used (at least compared to 2h/poles)
Swords are one of the longest 1h weapons, so that is a big reason why I (and other 1h's) choose to use a sword.

Jack of all trades, master of none is how I look at it. I enjoy using 1h swords for all of the same reasons but its very frustrating when a better score or k/d can be achieved with picks or maces because of sheer damage or knock down. Then there is Strat...good luck finding battles with decent 1h swords and good luck getting kills. It kinda takes away from the game for me when more than half of the weapons aren't even used in Strat.

[Gurnisson]

Against medium and light armor, sure. High-end armor? I'm sure you got a lot of glance hits.

No, with a couple of points invested into athletics and power strike, bouncing is either lag-related or your own fault (bad footwork, bad timing).