Unfair advantages to throwing?

[Gudari]

[Paul]

In before Smooth ranting about how overpowered throwing is for a long time and everyone's just too stupid to see it.

[Moncho]

Throwing op? Is this 2010?

[Vodner]

It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Dedicated throwing is already pretty mediocre. Throwing serves a nice niche, where a melee player can sacrifice some skillpoints for limited ranged capabilities. Making throwing weapons two slots would just mean that almost nobody would use them. What player would sacrifice four skill points and 80-100 WPF just so he can toss two or three fairly slow projectiles?

[sF_Guardian]

WHAT


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DID


I


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READ


????

(click to show/hide)

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Gudari]

  I'm not saying they are exactly overpowered. It is more that I can't understand some unbalanced facts about throwing

Dedicated throwing is already pretty mediocre. Throwing serves a nice niche, where a melee player can sacrifice some skillpoints for limited ranged capabilities. Making throwing weapons two slots would just mean that almost nobody would use them.

Ok. that's good point, but still, I think something could be done to limit number of bags people carries. Specially for "dedicated" throwers.

[sF_Guardian]

The accuracy and missile speed of throwing sucks ass.
On top of that you have a very limited amounth of ammunition
and need both lots of skillpoints and wpf to use thrwoing effectively.

I don't see anything op in there.

[Vodner]

Ok. that's good point, but still, I think something could be done to limit number of bags people carries. Specially for "dedicated" throwers.

Why? Dedicated throwing is already a worse class than dedicated archer.

[Relit]

Dedicated throwers are pretty rare. I am not sure how you could really restrict them without hurting the hybrids. Many of my clan-mates are 1h-shielder/throwers, I would hate to see something effect them when it is so quintessential to us.

Maybe a very slight increase to weight but I am unsure how much this would really effect dedicated throwers.

[F i n]

For me it feels wrong that shooting crossbows doesnt require any skillpoints - while throwing a stupid piece of wood with an iron head does.



I think the balance is given by limited total Ammo and horrible accuracy + need for skilling to actually do damage / use equipment.

If you now continue nerfing the ammount of ammo carried or the weight of those weapons or slots - you'll achieve nothing but to kill one of the basic classes - and with it the diversity of this wonderful mod.

[Miwiw]

To carry 12 throwing axes... that's hardly worth it. A dedicated thrower can throw those 12... after that they are either fucked and still have 1 axe for melee or they carry 1 less stack and take a real weapon with them. with 1h you lose 1 stack, with 2h or pole you lose 2 stacks, same with 1h/shield.
and a dedicated thrower is no use in Strat, and rather difficult to play anywhere else. Plus accuracy of any other ranged is much better than a thrower's.

Simple reason for the weight. Throwers count 1) as infantry and 2) archers are not meant to kite (as most inf says) and 3) most throwers prolly also got another melee weapon with them.

[Vermilion]

At the same time ALL throwing weapons takes a single slot so you are allowed to carry four stacks of them: you can carry with you 16 throwing spears, 12 jarids, 12 throwing axes, 32 shurikens (just to point out few examples). This is not realistic or historical at all, and can be a pain for the rest of the players (a xbowman carries 24 spending 4 slots too). It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Archery - Most bows 1 slots (rus and long are 2), all arrow types are 1 slot and the introduction of 0 slot 1h weapons to allow ranged to carry a melee weapon.

So, taking the long bow with bodkins as an example.. You get bow, 2 sets of bodkins (30, more when loomed) and a 1h weapon
Or you could go pure archery with the horn bow and have.. bow and 3 sets of bodkins (45, more when loomed)

X-bow - Most are 2 slots, bolts are 1 slot and once again the introduction of 0 slot 1h weapons to allow ranged to carry a melee weapon.

So, any x-bow, 2 sets of bolts (24 for steel bolts) and a 1h melee weapon.

Less bolts than archery but the reload time mean you get through less. This is balanced out by the additional power the X-bow holds over the equivalent bow, you can hold your shots for a long period of time, and have the bolt ready to release (once the bolt is drawn into the X-bow it remains there till shot). Finally and Maybe most importantly x-bow only requires wpf

Throwing - Majority 1 slot, a few low end are 0 slots.

Throwing daggers are low damage but you can have up to 32 (only 2 more than an archer with a melee weapon)
Thowing spears/throwing axes are heavy damage but can only carry 16 (much less than an heavy x-bow/arbalest with steel bolts)

Once throwing gets mixed with melee it becomes more complicated.. This is because throwing requires power throw and WPF (and unlike archery it results is a massive loss in ammo, no matter which weapon you use, throwing and melee weapon that is).

This means most people go mainly for melee and put a couple points on throwing just to throw on their way into melee. Personally I've found this to be a waste of time and prefer to have to characters (1 melee and 1 pure throwing).

I think especially with the recent buff to archery (archers don't complain have you seen how many more there are now?? I've even started using my archery alt again) and the not so recent nerf to heavy throwing axes.. The devs have done a great job in making these 3 classes as usable as possible without 1 being clearly superior to the others, or 1 inferior.

Finally, for your realism argument I'm not even going to bother having a debate as chadz has clearly stated the dev team are more interested in making a fun playable game than a realistic simulator .

(I have a throwing alt, archer alt and an x-bow alt)

[Nightmare798]

I don't want to start a war against thrower players and claim their class should be nerfed. Really. But I'm going to say why I feel throwing weapons are (that's what I feel) generally overpowered.

I'm fine with their damage or accuracy. I know there's a team that takes care of the general balance of the game and fixes these things and does it well. It's about other things that I find extrange.

First of all I play 90% of the time mixed ranged (xbow or hunting xbow) and 1 handed- shield. I have seen how most xbows become 2-slots (hunting being the only 1-slot) and that most 2-h or polearms takes 2 (even 3) slots. At the same time ALL throwing weapons takes a single slot so you are allowed to carry four stacks of them: you can carry with you 16 throwing spears, 12 jarids, 12 throwing axes, 32 shurikens (just to point out few examples). This is not realistic or historical at all, and can be a pain for the rest of the players (a xbowman carries 24 spending 4 slots too). It have great impact on the game. The balance may require that many throwing uses 2-slots so people don't abuse them.

Another fact I find annoying is the weigh of throwing weapons (average 3) compared to bolts: the bag of bolts weights 6 and the archer's arrows 10 ( . It doesn't feel right and don't know what's the reason behind this.

Well, this is not even a suggestion for changes. I was just pointing some facts that I don't understand (and I've been thinking for a while to find a reason), and annoys me. So I'd be happy if someone just tell me the reason for that advantages to throwing and not simply blame on me.

And thanks in advance

you seem to forget the fact that throwing has extremely slow missile speed [at least concerning axes] and you can miss even at point blank range. they are also hugely penalized for using shield [just try to take training shield and franciscas and count throws per second].

xbows have 2 slots because strongest one have about 80 damage without looming, which equals one shotting anything that doesnt have heavy armor, whereas with throwing, [unless you have throwing lances] you have great chance that even after hitting 2 or 3 times, enemy will still be standing.

[ThePoopy]

thrower - 1 ensured kill/stack

arbalest - 1 kill/bolt time limited

archer - pew pew pew

[Necrorave]

People arguing that throwing is weaker than other ranged are usually not considering other facts about throwing...

To start you can throw many projectiles in a small time span, while xbows have a reload time in which they must stand still.

Throwing has the lowest accuracy decrease while moving and allows them to still be somewhat accurate while mobile.

More damage than a bow (For the most part) but less than an xbow.  (To fill the gap between them while at the same time creating a Medium/close ranged attack.)

The ability for a thrower to go melee in a split second instead of changing weapons is a huuuge advantage.  Whether or not you are skilled in melee with that weapon is fairly null.

1h throwing weapons such as the axes and hammers are decent melee weapons to begin with.

I can agree that the weight is a bit weird and does not seem to make sense.  Although, there is a reason that it is that way and should remain that way.

EDIT: This is pure speculation considering I have not played a fulled gen of Throwing myself.  Just reminding people that their are other facts about throwing than the obvious.