Buff Arming Sword

[Phew]

I like the idea. The only downside of fiddling with the Nordic war sword's stats is that the nordic swords are part of a simple progression: Simple Nordic Sword, Nordic Short Sword, Nordic Sword, Nordic Short War Sword, Nordic War Sword and Nordic Champion Sword (i know right, way more nordic swords than i thought we had till i compared them all recently).

So although your balance suggestion makes sense for the 3 weapons, it'll have a knock-on effect for the stats for all the other nordic swords, and other 1handers balanced relative to the ones you've mentioned. Poor Tydeus, now we see the tip of the iceburg for weapon balance. Unless a weapon is totally unique, any balance suggestions need to take into *all* relative stats of all similar weapons. Otherwise Tydeus has to put up with a 'wtf Nordic War Sword is better than Nordic Champion Sword at half the cost' sort of thread.

Trading 2 speed for 7cm reach (Nordic War -> Nordic Champion's) is a balanced tradeoff and consistent with other weapons (within 1h and in the other weapon types). The fact that it obeys the laws of physics is just gravy.

This requirement that weapon damage and speed values be integers makes 1h weapon balance particularly difficult. The spread between "high damage" and "low damage" weapons in 1h is only about 6 points, just like the spread between "fast" and "slow" is only about 6 points. But there are 80 1h weapons, so there isn't much room for uniqueness.

I'd rather have two weapons with identical stats and different textures than one weapon having crappy stats and going totally unused, which is what we have now.

[Nightmare798]

The Arming Sword is priced comparably to the Nordic War and Italian Swords, yet its stats are clearly inferior to both. In fact, it's the most expensive 1h weapon that doesn't have a clear "niche"-i.e. something it does better than all other weapons.

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Just looking at the models, the Nordic War is clearly the "slashing" weapon, and the Italian is clearly the "thrusting" weapon. The Arming Sword looks like it should be a compromise between the two, but its cut damage is worse than either. The problem is, there's only 1 cut damage difference between the Italian and Nordic War, so there's no room between them for the Arming. So here's my proposition:

                           Nordic    Arming     Italian
Cut Damage:      32            31           30       
Thrust Damage:  21           23            25     

-Nordic War Sword gains 1 cut but loses 1 pierce
-Arming gains 2 cut but loses 2 pierce
-Italian-no change (most people consider Italian to be perfectly balanced as is)

Speed remains the same for all. Weight of arming sword should probably be bumped up to 1.5 kg like the other two. Balance cost however you like, no one really cares about cost for 1h weapons anyway. Make it so all 1h swords get the same heirloom bonus (+3c/+2p), and adjust Side Sword as suggested on other threads. This cuts down on the proliferation of 1h stabbiness all over the battlefield, and increases 1h sword variety overall.

Historically, the "Arming Sword"-type weapon was one of the most commonly used types of swords, but you almost never see it in cRPG. Buff it and let's bring more variety to the battlefield!

arming sword is also cheaper [even though the difference is extremely small] and has 3 better pierce damage. and about italian sword...well, its more expensive.

no need to buff.

[Corsair831]

I like the idea. The only downside of fiddling with the Nordic war sword's stats is that the nordic swords are part of a simple progression: Simple Nordic Sword, Nordic Short Sword, Nordic Sword, Nordic Short War Sword, Nordic War Sword and Nordic Champion Sword (i know right, way more nordic swords than i thought we had till i compared them all recently).

So although your balance suggestion makes sense for the 3 weapons, it'll have a knock-on effect for the stats for all the other nordic swords, and other 1handers balanced relative to the ones you've mentioned. Poor Tydeus, now we see the tip of the iceburg for weapon balance. Unless a weapon is totally unique, any balance suggestions need to take into *all* relative stats of all similar weapons. Otherwise Tydeus has to put up with a 'wtf Nordic War Sword is better than Nordic Champion Sword at half the cost' sort of thread.

actually nordic champion sword (NCS) vs nordic war sword (NWS) do have very separate niches

longer weapons do less damage at less range; what i mean to say is, all weapons do their maximum damage at the maximum point of their swing, meaning the nordic champion sword, being a very long 1h, does a lot of damage at the furthest point, but practically negligible damage when it hits a close range leftslash; which is unfortunate as most 1h players facehug leftswing slash. It's the main reason i use the NWS over the NCS.

if you don't believe me, you can actually test this; fight against someone with a short 1h e.g. the nordic war sword, broad short sword, and get them to close range leftswing you, as well as right/leftswing at their maximum range

then get someone to do the same thing with an arabian cavalry sword / nordic champion sword

the differences in damage should be quite apparent (the NCS does more damage at long range, NWS more at close)

[Phew]

I'd also be OK with just giving the Arming Sword +1 cut, which would make it basically a slightly shorter Italian Sword. Considering that Italian has always been one of (if not THE) most popular 1h swords, and the Arming Sword is basically non-existent on the battlefield, this minor change would help to bring more diversity to the battlefield.

I can't be the only one that likes the stats of the Italian Sword, but isn't a fan of the looks. The Arming Sword has a more "western European high Middle Ages" look, whereas the Italian Sword is more early Renaissance. And of course the Nordic War Sword is more early Middle Ages. All three swords should have viable stats, since they are each great representations of common 1h swords of their era.

PS-Long Arming Sword also has inferior stats; I suggest giving it +1 speed, then it would actually have a niche instead of just being a cheaper/crappier Knightly Arming Sword. Then buff the Arabian Arming Sword, and every 1h above the "Sword" (clearly the last of the "peasant" 1h weapons) would then have a niche.

[Rebelyell]

Don't mean to sound like an ass hole or anything, as I'm glad you care. But this doesn't actually help at all. The problem is that unless you're breaking costs up and deciding before stats, what weapons go to what section/tier, you've only introduced one more variable to think about when balancing. In this situation it doesn't really make anything more difficult, as it's already clear where each weapon belongs (at least to me), but it certainly doesn't make things easier. There are a lot of variables to think about when balancing and comparing weapons and weapon type vs weapon type has to be included in that.

there is shit load of weapons that have their stats way out  tier line
example:
two handed sword

[Phew]

two handed sword

2h sword should have +1 cut and +1 pierce; that would make it roughly an average between the Longsword and the Sword of War, two weapons that are generally considered "balanced".

But back to the arming sword...

[Mr.K.]

Don't forget the Long Arming Sword. Shittier version of Knightly Arming Sword and still at high tier price. Does someone think the 2k price difference makes any difference here?

As others already mentioned there should be more of a divide between weapon classes. 1H for example could be something like:
0-1k: peasant weapons with highly inferior stats compared to top or even medium tier weapons.
1k-3k: low price sidearms for archers, lance cav etc. Weapons with inferior stats to top tier weapons.
5-7k: high price sidearms, best zero slotters, good shield breakers etc.
9-10k: top tier 1H swords, maces and axes. All balanced by stats within the group.
11k: top tier with effective secondary modes (Broad One Handed Battle Axe for example)

This would allow you to either choose a Knightly Arming Sword for 9k or Long Arming with one less cut for maybe something like 3k. Pure 1H would still choose the higher price weapon, but that would give far better selection for lancers, archers with spare slots and other hybrids that struggle with upkeep.

The same should be done with 2H as well. In fact the problem is much worse with those weapons (dirt cheap bastards and longsword, ridiculously pricey GGS and DGS.

[Phew]

Don't forget the Long Arming Sword. Shittier version of Knightly Arming Sword and still at high tier price. Does someone think the 2k price difference makes any difference here?

I've suggested it in another thread, but I think the Long Arming Sword should gain +1 speed. This would make it balanced with the Arabian Guard Sword and Knightly Arming Sword.

[Kafein]

Think of some changes you'd do, then scan the whole list of 1h weapons(80+) and make sure that it doesn't break balance/replicate another weapon somewhere else. It's 3K gold cheaper than the side sword, that's what you get for going with a significantly cheaper weapon.

You know this is pretty much irrelevant, everybody ready to heirloom a weapon will choose the best one.

[Phew]

You know this is pretty much irrelevant, everybody ready to heirloom a weapon will choose the best one.

Like I said earlier, for the typical player it's about 8% additional overall upkeep (for all their gear) to go from Arming Sword->Side Sword, but thrust damage (the primary attack for 1h now) against a typical target goes up by well over 25%. Every player will take 25% more damage on their primary attack at a cost of only 8% more upkeep, and if they are truly broke, they will wear lighter armor so they can afford it. This is why you see Side Swords everywhere, and never see Arming Swords.

Above obvious peasant weapons, no weapon should be made totally obsolete by a more expensive weapon. Everything should have a niche.

[Nightmare798]

I've suggested it in another thread, but I think the Long Arming Sword should gain +1 speed. This would make it balanced with the Arabian Guard Sword and Knightly Arming Sword.

in that case, knightly arming sword would also have to get buffed.

[Phew]

in that case, knightly arming sword would also have to get buffed.

No, 1 swing dmg for 1 speed is a balanced tradeoff that occurs within every weapon class (including 1h). See Liuyedao vs. Niuweidao; both quite popular and differ only by 1 speed/1 cut.

[Nightmare798]

No, 1 swing dmg for 1 speed is a balanced tradeoff that occurs within every weapon class (including 1h). See Liuyedao vs. Niuweidao; both quite popular and differ only by 1 speed/1 cut.

no damn way, 1c damage is not enough to justify 1 speed loss. not to mention that it costs almost 2k more.

[Phew]

no damn way, 1c damage is not enough to justify 1 speed loss. not to mention that it costs almost 2k more.

It's a balanced tradeoff. With 7 PS ~100 wpf, 31c does about 8% more damage against 55 armor (typical melee player armor) than 30 cut. That's like having +1 Power Strike. Obviously the tradeoff is fair, because lots of people choose Niuweidao vs. Liuyedao.

You may prefer the speed over damage, but others may not. The option should be at least presented so people can make their own choice.

[Nightmare798]

It's a balanced tradeoff. With 7 PS ~100 wpf, 31c does about 8% more damage against 55 armor (typical melee player armor) than 30 cut. That's like having +1 Power Strike. Obviously the tradeoff is fair, because lots of people choose Niuweidao vs. Liuyedao.

You may prefer the speed over damage, but others may not. The option should be at least presented so people can make their own choice.

i would like to see where did you found those numbers, not to mention damage is also dependant on movement speed.

people pick niuweidao because it is more than 2k cheaper. upkeep is bitch, moreso when you don heavy armor.