Buff Arming Sword

[Phew]

i would like to see where did you found those numbers, not to mention damage is also dependant on movement speed.

people pick niuweidao because it is more than 2k cheaper. upkeep is bitch, moreso when you don heavy armor.

Nightmare, niuweidao is 2k more expensive than Liuyedao. Damage values from http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/, the only active damage calculator I know of. It may not be 100% accurate, but it provides relative values for comparison.

It's pretty clear from your post history that you just like to pose contrary opinions that are unsubstantiated by reason or logic. The Game Balance Discussion forum is the most effective when people stick to math rather than arbitrary statements (contradictory arbitrary statements in your case). I request that you please not clutter up well-reasoned balance threads with contrarian babble, since it just derails the discussion.

[Nightmare798]

Nightmare, niuweidao is 2k more expensive than Liuyedao. Damage values from http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/, the only active damage calculator I know of. It may not be 100% accurate, but it provides relative values for comparison.

It's pretty clear from your post history that you just like to pose contrary opinions that are unsubstantiated by reason or logic. The Game Balance Discussion forum is the most effective when people stick to math rather than arbitrary statements (contradictory arbitrary statements in your case). I request that you please not clutter up well-reasoned balance threads with contrarian babble, since it just derails the discussion.

my bad, i missmatched the names of swords. you must also not forget that some weapons have much better looming options than others. i just fail to see why would ANYONE pick 1 damage over 1 speed, especially when there is a 2k price difference,and 140g upkeep difference.

tbh i have not seen enough niuwendao users to say that people chose this weapon over another.

also, some people chose their weapons for their looks. i myself chose to use long espada over normal espada, because i like the looks.

[Phew]

my bad, i missmatched the names of swords. you must also not forget that some weapons have much better looming options than others. i just fail to see why would ANYONE pick 1 damage over 1 speed, especially when there is a 2k price difference,and 140g upkeep difference.

OK, here is why someone would choose 1 dmg over 1 speed (31 cut vs 30 cut), using the current soak/reduce formulas from Huscarlton Banks' spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag5R9vD8esLKdEtZczR1YjdpQlkxOTB4LTBkMjJpckE#gid=7
Values are calculated using 21 str, 7 PS, and 100 effective wpf.

Damage against 50 armor:          
                                                     30 cut                31 cut                 
Torso hit, no speed bonus            10.2                    10.8 (+6%)
Headshot, no speed bonus           17.7                    18.6 (+5.2%)
Headshot, 20% speed bonus        23.2                    24.3 (+4.7%)

Damage against 60 armor:          
                                                     30 cut               31 cut                 
Torso hit, no speed bonus            5.8                      6.2 (+7.4%)
Headshot, no speed bonus           10.7                    11.4 (+5.9%)
Headshot, 20% speed bonus        14.6                    15.3 (+5.3%)

Do you still fail to see why "ANYONE" would pick 5-7% more damage against a typical player over 1 speed? It's a fair tradeoff, because plenty of people would (and do) make that tradeoff.

Next time you are trying to prove a point, try supporting your argument with facts. You might be surprised to discover that facts are actually more effective tools than even the mighty caps lock.

EDIT-Back on topic, the same analysis shows that the Side Sword does 33.4% more thrust damage against a 60 armor target than the Arming Sword. Quite a serious benefit for a mere 180g upkeep difference. By that logic, where's the sword that costs 1k to repair but has 50 pierce damage?

[Falka]

i just fail to see why would ANYONE pick 1 damage over 1 speed

Cause 1 more dmg means that niuweidao is 1/31 better in that aspect and 1 less speed means it's 1/102 worse than Liuyedao? 1 cut for 1 speed is okay trade off according to me.

[San]

I believe 3strength + 1PS is worth ~2 damage around the 3X range of damage. 1 speed is worth ~12-15wpf. When you get to the extremities of speed, I think it starts to become quite worth it.

Edit: And that is why I prefer the liuyedao.

[Phew]

I believe 3strength + 1PS is worth ~2 damage around the 3X range of damage. 1 speed is worth ~12-15wpf. When you get to the extremities of speed, I think it starts to become quite worth it.

Edit: And that is why I prefer the liuyedao.

This tradeoff holds nearly exactly true using Huscarlton_Banks' spreadsheet (30c w/7PS = 32 cut w/6PS), for all armor values; Good info San. The speed values jive with the tests I've seen also.

Against very good players, speed is everything, because a hit they block does zero damage. In a clusterfvck, you want to be dishing out as much pain as possible before you die, so damage is king. That's why 1 cut dmg is balanced with 1 speed for 1h swords, because there are situations where either is better. I think 1 cut damage is also roughly balanced with 2 thrust damage; to get to the high thrust damage swords, you get into serious glance territory on your sideswings (OP side sword excepted).

[Falka]

When you get to the extremities of speed, I think it starts to become quite worth it.

Edit: And that is why I prefer the liuyedao.

Well, on second thought I do agree with you, but only if your char deals "enough" dmg - unloomed liuyedao with low PS and wpf is pretty bad I think. Personally I would pick liuyedao probably, but don't like the look of it, so I will stick with niuweidao.

[Nightmare798]

OK, here is why someone would choose 1 dmg over 1 speed (31 cut vs 30 cut), using the current soak/reduce formulas from Huscarlton Banks' spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag5R9vD8esLKdEtZczR1YjdpQlkxOTB4LTBkMjJpckE#gid=7
Values are calculated using 21 str, 7 PS, and 100 effective wpf.

Damage against 50 armor:          
                                                     30 cut                31 cut                 
Torso hit, no speed bonus            10.2                    10.8 (+6%)
Headshot, no speed bonus           17.7                    18.6 (+5.2%)
Headshot, 20% speed bonus        23.2                    24.3 (+4.7%)

Damage against 60 armor:          
                                                     30 cut               31 cut                 
Torso hit, no speed bonus            5.8                      6.2 (+7.4%)
Headshot, no speed bonus           10.7                    11.4 (+5.9%)
Headshot, 20% speed bonus        14.6                    15.3 (+5.3%)

Do you still fail to see why "ANYONE" would pick 5-7% more damage against a typical player over 1 speed? It's a fair tradeoff, because plenty of people would (and do) make that tradeoff.

Next time you are trying to prove a point, try supporting your argument with facts. You might be surprised to discover that facts are actually more effective tools than even the mighty caps lock.

EDIT-Back on topic, the same analysis shows that the Side Sword does 33.4% more thrust damage against a 60 armor target than the Arming Sword. Quite a serious benefit for a mere 180g upkeep difference. By that logic, where's the sword that costs 1k to repair but has 50 pierce damage?

1 point of true damage is not enough to justify ANY speed loss at all. it is also not enough to justify higher upkeep, or the price of weapon, especially ef the price is 2k higher. id rather get 2 hits in, than doing ONE more point of damage. it is not about how much damage you do, it is about how many hits can you get in as fast as possible.

EDIT: also, sidesword is a high tier expensive sword. you cant expect a weapon that costs 3k less to perform same.

[owens]

It is 3 reach less and 1 less damage

It is inferior

It is only 1.2K cheaper



Give it 1 more stab damage

[MURDERTRON]

I agree with tydeus.  There are too many 1h weapons, which makes balancing tedious and worthless.  If you are saying that cost truly doesn't matter, then we should simply delete the cheaper and slightly worse options.  And then spend the time that could be taken for useless balancing to add dual wielding.  And fire arrows.  A crossbow that shoots bees.  A camel.  An albino elephant.  Darker black guy skin.  A t-Rex boss in DTV.  And don't forget ghost riding your horse.

[Falka]

Eh, I think that most of 1h weapons have their own niche, there's only a few swords, arming sword among them, which are inferior to some other in every aspect.

[MURDERTRON]

Eh, I think that most of 1h weapons have their own niche, there's only a few swords, arming sword among them, which are inferior to some other in every aspect.

Except cost.  Can you at lease lobby for an interesting weapon to get buffed?  Cleaver.  Sickle.  Hammer .  Peasant knife.  Nunchucks.

[Necrorave]

In my opinion, they just need to lower the cost.  Then its fine.  I like the arming sword as it is and now that 1h stab is a great and useful attack, the 25 pierce can do a bit of damage.

I do personally think the Italian needs a -1 in Pierce damage but I cannot complain much about it.

[Jarlek]

I already have a Short Arming Sword and a Long Arming Sword loomed. Don't give me a reason (in addition to looks) to get an Arming sword +3 too D:

(click to show/hide)

Considering the Arming Sword was the most common sword, this should definitely be one of the best all-around weapons and not a worthless piece of crap. Just switching the stats of this and another weapon would be enough for me

[Penitent]

I say give arming sword +2 pierce.  Balanced.