Reduce armoured horse upkeep

[Magikarp]

I personally don't think they are fine balance-wise, but they are certainly not fine with realism. We try to do balance with a bit of realism when possible so I think the maneuver stat should be between roughly 40 and 48 for all horses. Being a 360° turret with a lance is enough to hit everything anyway. Good players don't need maneuver to evade unplanned attacks, they just plan ahead.

We don't need it, but it sure as hell is good to have .
I was talking about speedy horses like the courser btw, not the Sarranid one.

If this game had realism anyway, we would steamroll almost everything.

[Seawied]

I just find it astounding that you guys think that the most overpowered items in the game are useless unless you heirloom them. You guys probably weren't around when everyone had these horses. Do you think people picked the small, speedy horses when money wasn't an issue? No. They went straight for the near unkillable tanks like the plated charger. Back then, it was a hell of a lot harder to get everything heirloomed too. Even players that were mediocre at best topped the scoreboards.

The January patch was done largely in response to these players. The horse repair costs insured that these very powerful horses were still in the game, but could only be used sparingly.

And I'm sorry, but any player who thinks that cavalry absolutely need these horses and that these horses are underpowered either has no clue about game balance or is one of the worst cavalry players in the game.

Keep the armored horses rare.

@Kafein, I agree with you completely. 48 should be the maximum maneuverability on a horse, even if heirloomed. While a poorly planned attack with result in a horse and horsemen getting killed, a skilled player would find this as a mere inconvenience.

I would type more, but I'm in the process of making some BIG-ASS cookies for a photoshoot soon.

[Magikarp]

I just find it astounding that you guys think that the most overpowered items in the game are useless unless you heirloom them. You guys probably weren't around when everyone had these horses. Do you think people picked the small, speedy horses when money wasn't an issue? No. They went straight for the near unkillable tanks like the plated charger. Back then, it was a hell of a lot harder to get everything heirloomed too. Even players that were mediocre at best topped the scoreboards.

The January patch was done largely in response to these players. The horse repair costs insured that these very powerful horses were still in the game, but could only be used sparingly.

And I'm sorry, but any player who thinks that cavalry absolutely need these horses and that these horses are underpowered either has no clue about game balance or is one of the worst cavalry players in the game.

Keep the armored horses rare.

@Kafein, I agree with you completely. 48 should be the maximum maneuverability on a horse, even if heirloomed. While a poorly planned attack with result in a horse and horsemen getting killed, a skilled player would find this as a mere inconvenience.

I would type more, but I'm in the process of making some BIG-ASS cookies for a photoshoot soon.

You seem to have forgotten that armoured horses have received big nerfs in the last patches. Going for that Plated Charger just isn't worth it anymore. Lighter horses can catch up to you, outmanouvre you and kill you much easier than you can kill them. Or they will just couch your horse, instantly killing it. Versus men on foot, the horses are too slow and unmanouverable to get out of risky situations quickly.

Yes, I don't want every cavalryman to use the armoured ones. But I find it ridiculous that we have to pay so much for armoured horses while their stats are mediocre. For instance, yesterday I saw someone riding a charger. I haven't seen anyone riding that horse since months.

The repair bill on them is ridiculous at the moment.

[Kafein]

I just find it astounding that you guys think that the most overpowered items in the game are useless unless you heirloom them. You guys probably weren't around when everyone had these horses. Do you think people picked the small, speedy horses when money wasn't an issue? No. They went straight for the near unkillable tanks like the plated charger. Back then, it was a hell of a lot harder to get everything heirloomed too. Even players that were mediocre at best topped the scoreboards.

The January patch was done largely in response to these players. The horse repair costs insured that these very powerful horses were still in the game, but could only be used sparingly.

And I'm sorry, but any player who thinks that cavalry absolutely need these horses and that these horses are underpowered either has no clue about game balance or is one of the worst cavalry players in the game.

Keep the armored horses rare.

@Kafein, I agree with you completely. 48 should be the maximum maneuverability on a horse, even if heirloomed. While a poorly planned attack with result in a horse and horsemen getting killed, a skilled player would find this as a mere inconvenience.

I would type more, but I'm in the process of making some BIG-ASS cookies for a photoshoot soon.

Fine, but I think the problem is the domination of light horses. By whatever mean, armored horses should be more interesting to play with (I mean, it's part of the usual equipment), not to troll with for two rounds. Heavy cav has many disadvantages too. Before the upkeep patch, it was common knowledge that the Destrier was one of the best horses around, partially because it's balanced. Not too frail, not too slow. Able against other cav and good for bumpslashing.

So many things changed since then I doubt armored horses would be much more used if we reduced their upkeep a bit.

[Rumblood]

The repair bill on them is ridiculous at the moment.

Elite armor sets are not meant to be used every round. That was the entire purpose of upkeep, reduce the number of plated chargers and tincans running around. I still see an armored horse every map when server is full, and the elephants have made a return. The upkeep is working as intended. It requires you to play a money making build half the time, and a money using build the other half. The goal of upkeep was not to have cRPG millionaires 

[Siboire]

Elite armor sets are not meant to be used every round. That was the entire purpose of upkeep, reduce the number of plated chargers and tincans running around. I still see an armored horse every map when server is full, and the elephants have made a return. The upkeep is working as intended. It requires you to play a money making build half the time, and a money using build the other half. The goal of upkeep was not to have cRPG millionaires 

the Plated Charger must be those LLJK goons which is not representative of all players at all.

Fine, but I think the problem is the domination of light horses. By whatever mean, armored horses should be more interesting to play with (I mean, it's part of the usual equipment), not to troll with for two rounds. Heavy cav has many disadvantages too. Before the upkeep patch, it was common knowledge that the Destrier was one of the best horses around, partially because it's balanced. Not too frail, not too slow. Able against other cav and good for bumpslashing.

So many things changed since then I doubt armored horses would be much more used if we reduced their upkeep a bit.

I'm currently using a champion Destrier and I'm really happy with it as a lancer I simply love it. Mainly because 90% of cav is using Arabian or Courser and because it can take a good bit more damage and more charge damage. But with the upkeep, even with more than 120k gold in bank, I don't find interesting to use armored horses. Stat wise vs upkeep, my destrier is a lot better.

[Seawied]

You seem to have forgotten that armoured horses have received big nerfs in the last patches. Going for that Plated Charger just isn't worth it anymore. Lighter horses can catch up to you, outmanouvre you and kill you much easier than you can kill them. Or they will just couch your horse, instantly killing it. Versus men on foot, the horses are too slow and unmanouverable to get out of risky situations quickly.

Yes, I don't want every cavalryman to use the armoured ones. But I find it ridiculous that we have to pay so much for armoured horses while their stats are mediocre. For instance, yesterday I saw someone riding a charger. I haven't seen anyone riding that horse since months.

The repair bill on them is ridiculous at the moment.

Its manueverability is a bit of a drawback, but you pretty much covered it: other cavalry are the only things that can kill your horse regularly. Especially now. With throwing lances nerfed into oblivion, there is no way to consistently kill the armored horses if you are on foot.

Arrows: now cut damage. Against an armored horse, they barely scratch them
Throwing: jarrids, throwing lances, throwing spears, and throwing axes were overzealously nerfed, and not even a full stack of these can kill your horse.
Crossbows: The closest contender to the armored horse killer. Slow reloaded times and two-slots for crossbow alone make these an undesireable choice.
Pikes: Can stop a horse, but are ineffective at killing them.
2H: too risky
Polearms: Decent choice, but cavalry easily avoid these.
1H: cavalry bait


Whenever you have an item or a class where the only counter is the class in question itself, that class is too powerful. The real counter to these armored horse is the almighty dollar. People who can afford these horses are often the ones who decided which way the match is swung.

[Magikarp]

Its manueverability is a bit of a drawback, but you pretty much covered it: other cavalry are the only things that can kill your horse regularly. Especially now. With throwing lances nerfed into oblivion, there is no way to consistently kill the armored horses if you are on foot.

Arrows: now cut damage. Against an armored horse, they barely scratch them
Throwing: jarrids, throwing lances, throwing spears, and throwing axes were overzealously nerfed, and not even a full stack of these can kill your horse.
Crossbows: The closest contender to the armored horse killer. Slow reloaded times and two-slots for crossbow alone make these an undesireable choice.
Pikes: Can stop a horse, but are ineffective at killing them.
2H: too risky
Polearms: Decent choice, but cavalry easily avoid these.
1H: cavalry bait


Whenever you have an item or a class where the only counter is the class in question itself, that class is too powerful. The real counter to these armored horse is the almighty dollar. People who can afford these horses are often the ones who decided which way the match is swung.

Yet Light Horses do much better against the majority of the players?

Yes, they should pay more upkeep, but paying 3800 gold for the use of a gimmicky horse just doesn't cut it in my book. I'm not saying I want them to cost like 500 gold to upkeep, just a small cut of 1 percent of the total of 5.

Reducing the upkeep is the only way to make armoured horses a bit more interesting again.

[Vibe]

All cavalry looms are getting a nerf.

[MouthnHoof]

If this game had realism anyway, we would steamroll almost everything.

If this game had realism, horses could not gallop on half the terrain and break their legs running downhill.

Armored horses should be rare. I see only 2-3 plates (above transitional) in every round of 100 people server and there is usually 1-2 heavy horses. I'd say mission accomplished on the upkeep. No build should be stable with a tincan or a rhinocerhorse as standard equipment. Therefore their cost is no "worth it" by definition - it is a show off, or once in a few kind of equipment.

[Tzar]

Truth be told yes armored horses are crap compared to courser or arab even destrider.

Only ride my large warhorse for looks lol.

[Magikarp]

If this game had realism, horses could not gallop on half the terrain and break their legs running downhill.

Armored horses should be rare. I see only 2-3 plates (above transitional) in every round of 100 people server and there is usually 1-2 heavy horses. I'd say mission accomplished on the upkeep. No build should be stable with a tincan or a rhinocerhorse as standard equipment. Therefore their cost is no "worth it" by definition - it is a show off, or once in a few kind of equipment.

Wrong, how many times do I have to repeat this? I don't want people to be able to use them as standard equipment, I never said such a thing. I was just saying that the repair bill is too high for what you are getting. I want a small decrease, to ensure that:
a. They won't become overused.
b. Increase diversity because people will start using them more

[PhantomZero]

With the return of cavalry, light cav will decimate any heavy cav on the field. Their extreme cost is no longer justified.

Heavy cav is immune to Horse archers, but vulnerable to light cav.

[Kafein]

With the return of cavalry, light cav will decimate any heavy cav on the field. Their extreme cost is no longer justified.

Heavy cav is immune to Horse archers, but vulnerable to light cav.

That's a nice way to put it. Having an heavy horse means being more protected against projectiles, and that's the number one advantage IMO.

[Magikarp]

With the return of cavalry, light cav will decimate any heavy cav on the field. Their extreme cost is no longer justified.

Heavy cav is immune to Horse archers, but vulnerable to light cav.

Immune? Now that would be overpowered. Even my plated charger takes damage from their arrows.

Heavy Cavalry is even more hopeless against horse archers, due to lack of speed and manouverability to keep up with them.

But yeah, the high cost isn't justified anymore, not with these stats.