Summer Lovin

[Keshian]

love you kesh     

By the way we might have a fief or sale - you wouldn't happen to have a MW xbow?

[Canary]

Yeah no worries - having to attack a poorly designed map 8 times and then having someone tell me how we should fight it or attack after they themselves dumped 3K troops into it is not usually a  way to get on my good side.  We are pretty good on attacks with the vast majority of our major attacks being during primetime this strategus, it just came across as a bit condescending coming from you.  We know what we are doing, this is the first castle or city that we have attacked and haven't eventually taken.  We had considered attacking at noon and hoping to get more people on defending roster who hadn't fought on this map 6 times defending already, wouldn't be as quick to listen to orders to bitch mode run back to the broken keep rather than fight and get more high pingers tking in that shield wall, but didn't feel that was the right way to win it even though most of our guys were tired of fighting that map merc_mustikki designed (main reason we actually stopped) and wouldn't have minded more eu mercs replacing them.

We could also have attacked 700 man armies and gotten similar kills (kept doing better than 1 to 1 before chokepoints as attackers and even did a 1 for 1 last battle at the first 2 chokepoints) - but there are 28 guys with the chaos tag in Dhirim on strat map turtling up similar to what grey order did with uxhal on eu side where they can recruit almost as many troops as they lose each day (chaos actually pretty similar to eu in that way - very good at turtling).  Sadly since we cant take this fief no one probably will and we will have a completely wasted fief on an inactive faction rather than an active one.  Really want to keep strategus fun by getting more fiefs for active factions and just getting rid of inactives who just take up space - makes for far more battles and wars.  Its a lot more fun game when people actually add to the strategus map - part of the problem in EU - too many factions turtling up and going inactive - though to be fair Chaos has actually initiated more attacks than the biggest faction on NA side based on the recent charts page. (No wonder they have 74k troops in garrisons alone, 80K or so a few days ago)

Simplest solution - remove flags in inner keep - would make it on par with every city on the map and defenders would actually have to defend their outer walls and more strenuously defend the archways instead of just running back to the keep as soon as possible.

Can't win? Call the game broken and demand it gets changed.

Canary, just give up your fief, its been decided that you don't deserve to play strategus.

Enemy doing well? Say they don't deserve to play.


But seriously, Kesh, stop being so condescending yourself and stop being such a poor sport about this. I agree that the map is overpowered, though perhaps not to the same extent you do, and I agree that Jesus taunting you by calling your tactics bad is obnoxious and dumb, but you're getting bent out of shape and insulting the wrong people in the most outlandish and inappropriate ways.

Horrible turtling Chaos equally as bad as EU turtles with 21k tickets in their fiefs auto-recruiting going inactive never fighting and not playing the map correctly... go to hell with that. We've got many of our members inside Dhirim because it's our last stronghold (the weird Tadsamesh/Desire situation notwithstanding), where the heck else are they gonna go? You guys own pretty much the entire northern half of the map. We spread our resources out, at the beginning, relatively evenly among our fiefs and players. We didn't start favoring any one fief heavily for defense until we found out which ones we could reasonably hold for a longer duration, mostly because we didn't lose them right away and they were what we had left to work with.

I hope you also haven't forgotten the times we did attack your fiefs, something which has happened far too sparingly, I think we'd both agree. Or the times more recently when we took armies we could have used turtling harder and turned them into the field against you. Is that really what constitutes an "inactive faction" and a "wasted fief"? If you think we're going to rest on our laurels just because we have a strong defensive center you're mistaken. I'll try not to "take up too much space" with my one goddamn town (and one village - my faction does have several active people, you know, hardly an unfair proportion of players to fiefs).


The reason you do well at the early stages of the sieges against Dhirim is because that half of the map is horrible for defense. The front half, the walls and the streets with the center courtyard, are absolutely awful to try and hold. You can ladder into the left tower, and onto the archer shack between it and the gatehouse where we can't stand safely, and drop down behind defenders  with ease. Trying to hold the walls or the gatehouse leads us into getting entirely surrounded, and eventually the walls break and attackers get into the streets from both sides, where the only chokepoints turn into new ways to get backstabbed from. It's like a tiny field battle where the attackers are completely covered before they creep up at you from three sides. The map overall is too easy in front and too hard in back for attacking.

You will hopefully notice that we never immediately start the battles by falling back into the chokepoints beyond the archways, and that we never start using the superior rear ones first; we go through each one in succession. The fact that it's been a matter of less than ten minutes in some of those fights before the gatehouse is lost is absolutely ridiculous. Once it's lost, there's nothing left to defend but those archways and, eventually, the keep itself.

[Gristle]

Just saying, but this thread is called Summer Lovin' , not much love going around.

LOVE IS OVER

[Artyem]

I forgot all castles must be able to be rolled.

Artyem, if you are going to nerf Dhirim, be sure to nerf all castles(not just the castles of your friends enemies).

Last time I checked, though, castles and cities were made to be hard to take, and Dhirim is a good example of a Linear Castle.

If someone wants to get a collection of fiefs that are fucked up (Ichamur, Dhirim, etc) then I'd love to try and revamp them.  Castles like Rindyar and Knudarr are bad ass because they're placed in a legitimate location.  Both are on top of hills, are relatively small and easy to maneuver (Uhhun Castle is similar) and the walls are tough to ladder on.  The difference is that you CAN ladder on to the walls, you CAN take different routes and approaches.

Dhirim is not bad ass because it's been placed in a legitimate location, it's in a huge open field and only 1/3 of it is surrounded by real walls.  The rest of it is surrounded by invisible walls and leads to the most out of place and completely impregnable inner keep I've ever seen.

Yes, castles are supposed to be hard  to take, but they are not by any means supposed to be this linear.  Once we take the walls it's a one way grind that at most earns us 15k xp per tick, and I for one am not okay with that.  Try fighting as an attacker and you'll see what I mean.

[Gristle]

That becomes a realism versus gameplay debate. The last leg of that map is no good for gameplay.

[Saxton]

By the way we might have a fief or sale - you wouldn't happen to have a MW xbow?

Actually im starting my own faction, care to give me a free castle/army? 

[Formaldehyde Junkie]

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[Saxton]

Can't win? Call the game broken and demand it gets changed.

Enemy doing well? Say they don't deserve to play.


But seriously, Kesh, stop being so condescending yourself and stop being such a poor sport about this. I agree that the map is overpowered, though perhaps not to the same extent you do, and I agree that Jesus taunting you by calling your tactics bad is obnoxious and dumb, but you're getting bent out of shape and insulting the wrong people in the most outlandish and inappropriate ways.

Horrible turtling Chaos equally as bad as EU turtles with 21k tickets in their fiefs auto-recruiting going inactive never fighting and not playing the map correctly... go to hell with that. We've got many of our members inside Dhirim because it's our last stronghold (the weird Tadsamesh/Desire situation notwithstanding), where the heck else are they gonna go? You guys own pretty much the entire northern half of the map. We spread our resources out, at the beginning, relatively evenly among our fiefs and players. We didn't start favoring any one fief heavily for defense until we found out which ones we could reasonably hold for a longer duration, mostly because we didn't lose them right away and they were what we had left to work with.

I hope you also haven't forgotten the times we did attack your fiefs, something which has happened far too sparingly, I think we'd both agree. Or the times more recently when we took armies we could have used turtling harder and turned them into the field against you. Is that really what constitutes an "inactive faction" and a "wasted fief"? If you think we're going to rest on our laurels just because we have a strong defensive center you're mistaken. I'll try not to "take up too much space" with my one goddamn town (and one village - my faction does have several active people, you know, hardly an unfair proportion of players to fiefs).


The reason you do well at the early stages of the sieges against Dhirim is because that half of the map is horrible for defense. The front half, the walls and the streets with the center courtyard, are absolutely awful to try and hold. You can ladder into the left tower, and onto the archer shack between it and the gatehouse where we can't stand safely, and drop down behind defenders  with ease. Trying to hold the walls or the gatehouse leads us into getting entirely surrounded, and eventually the walls break and attackers get into the streets from both sides, where the only chokepoints turn into new ways to get backstabbed from. It's like a tiny field battle where the attackers are completely covered before they creep up at you from three sides. The map overall is too easy in front and too hard in back for attacking.

You will hopefully notice that we never immediately start the battles by falling back into the chokepoints beyond the archways, and that we never start using the superior rear ones first; we go through each one in succession. The fact that it's been a matter of less than ten minutes in some of those fights before the gatehouse is lost is absolutely ridiculous. Once it's lost, there's nothing left to defend but those archways and, eventually, the keep itself.

Honestly does anyone besides canary, kesh and sandy actually read these whole things?

[Matey]

I mean, I can understand the frustration, but castles there were indeed designed that way. If you were able to get on those walls, what would you do, though? Suicide off them, put ranged up there? What about when we retreated into the keep and spammed rondels?

Which do you think should be harder to take? Dhirim or this?

(click to show/hide)

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Personally I think Durrin should be harder but guess what... It would actually be easier to attack than Dhirim. Cities are not supposed to be super castles... they are supposed to be less defensible because they are open trade centres whereas castles are military installations designed to withhold attacks. Villages should be the easiest, towns second easiest and castles hardest to attack.

Most (if not all) other cities are fairly even, if the attackers have a good strategy they can keep the defenders on their toes as the fiefs are just too damn big for the defenders to be everywhere at once; this is just not the case with dhirim as it is actually a really small map. Also, other cities generally have lots of different ways to approach them but this one is literally just a funnel that gets tighter and tighter until culminating in 3 separate tiny ass doors with spawns behind. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the map maker needs a good slap in the face.

[KaMiKaZe_JoE]

I love linear maps, though Dhirim is a poorly constructed one. Fighting in the chokepoints outside the keep is intense and simple. It takes the usually complex act of Strat HONOR BATTLES and reduces it to it's simplest form--a back and forth struggle between two opposing teams.

Dhirim is great until we get to that fucking keep. A single doorway is too easy to defend--you've got a whole team of maulers, shielders, and xbowmen waiting for you on the other side.

I think the keep at Dhirim should simply have multiple entrances. Maybe two doorways, with one accessible via a side-street or an underground passage. I like the idea of having to break into a heavily defended keep--it's fun, in theory. In practice.

[Heroin]

Bring it.

Wall o' Shakespeare incoming:

How yet resolves the governor of the town?
This is the latest parle we will admit;
Therefore to our best mercy give yourselves;
Or like to men proud of destruction
Defy us to our worst: for, as I am a soldier,
A name that in my thoughts becomes me best,
If I begin the battery once again,
I will not leave the half-achieved Harfleur
Till in her ashes she lie buried.
The gates of mercy shall be all shut up,
And the flesh'd soldier, rough and hard of heart,
In liberty of bloody hand shall range
With conscience wide as hell, mowing like grass
Your fresh-fair virgins and your flowering infants.
What is it then to me, if impious war,
Array'd in flames like to the prince of fiends,
Do, with his smirch'd complexion, all fell feats
Enlink'd to waste and desolation?
What is't to me, when you yourselves are cause,
If your pure maidens fall into the hand
Of hot and forcing violation?
What rein can hold licentious wickedness
When down the hill he holds his fierce career?
We may as bootless spend our vain command
Upon the enraged soldiers in their spoil
As send precepts to the leviathan
To come ashore. Therefore, you men of Harfleur,
Take pity of your town and of your people,
Whiles yet my soldiers are in my command;
Whiles yet the cool and temperate wind of grace
O'erblows the filthy and contagious clouds
Of heady murder, spoil and villany.
If not, why, in a moment look to see
The blind and bloody soldier with foul hand
Defile the locks of your shrill-shrieking daughters;
Your fathers taken by the silver beards,
And their most reverend heads dash'd to the walls,
Your naked infants spitted upon pikes,
Whiles the mad mothers with their howls confused
Do break the clouds, as did the wives of Jewry
At Herod's bloody-hunting slaughtermen.
What say you? will you yield, and this avoid,
Or, guilty in defence, be thus destroy'd?

[Penguin]

Fun Fact:

Penguin (aka JC) was kicked out of the FCC for being too unstable and extreme of a personality to deal with.

He was viewed by leadership as a problem player, by the FCC. Just let that sink in for a while.

What? I left on my own accord. Prior to that Murdertron (nothing against him) was always asking me when I was going to get involved in strat for FCC. I said I had no plans and wanted to do my own thing. I left on good terms because we weren't really benefiting eachother. Get your facts straight before you try make up stories to slander other peoples character gmno. But yeah if you really want to believe I'm " too unstable" even for Kesh go right ahead.

[Gmnotutoo]

What? I left on my own accord. Prior to that Murdertron (nothing against him) was always asking me when I was going to get involved in strat for FCC. I said I had no plans and wanted to do my own thing. I left on good terms because we weren't really benefiting eachother. Get your facts straight before you try make up stories to slander other peoples character gmno. But yeah if you really want to believe I'm " too unstable" even for Kesh go right ahead.

You might have left the c-rpg clan on your own accord, but in the strat faction you were removed. There was a conversation amongst the clan leaders about you and your actions, unanimously we decided you were not a good representative of the FCC in Strategus. I don't lie to people and I don't make shit up.

I'd rather I didn't see you the way I do, but the way you conduct yourself contradicts what you preach. You're also always playing off the hatred of the FCC to get attention.

I don't care if people say angry things about the FCC when they do shit that is unfavorable or if they argue with Kesh or Bale or Matey or whatever. But you seriously go way to far with your obsession.

[dynamike]

If someone wants to get a collection of fiefs that are fucked up (Ichamur, Dhirim, etc) then I'd love to try and revamp them.  Castles like Rindyar and Knudarr are bad ass because they're placed in a legitimate location.  Both are on top of hills, are relatively small and easy to maneuver (Uhhun Castle is similar) and the walls are tough to ladder on.  The difference is that you CAN ladder on to the walls, you CAN take different routes and approaches.

Dhirim is not bad ass because it's been placed in a legitimate location, it's in a huge open field and only 1/3 of it is surrounded by real walls.  The rest of it is surrounded by invisible walls and leads to the most out of place and completely impregnable inner keep I've ever seen.

Yes, castles are supposed to be hard  to take, but they are not by any means supposed to be this linear.  Once we take the walls it's a one way grind that at most earns us 15k xp per tick, and I for one am not okay with that.  Try fighting as an attacker and you'll see what I mean.

Arty you made a post that both Canary and Kesh +1'd.

Time for a Strat reset.

[Ethgar]

Off topic, and I apologize for this, but with all this castle design talk, etc...............

What is required for doing castle designs??    Is it a 3d program where you design it yourself, a 2d drawing/design submitted, etc, etc..........

I'm just curious. 

Thank you!