Author Topic: Horses have no natural predators  (Read 30701 times)

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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #225 on: May 24, 2011, 06:50:15 pm »
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As said, cav force upon entire teams a certain style of play, something no other class does. And that is not balance.

False : Archers will cause more people to take shields if possible or alternatively more ranged / cav (if a flat map)
Shielders will cause 2h's to take axes if they have any intelligence to negate the protection via shield
2h's will cause an increase in ranged (in previous patches throwers)
Cav will cause people to take high ground and be more aware / take pikes? (in theory at least :P)

Also, the scenario you pictured is pretty much the ideal one for effective use of a pike (as the only thing you needed to do was to deny them that little area)

The ideal scenario being I was fighting cav? :P this was on a pretty open map though i admit the trees helped initially as i moved towards my own team to support. And if i can deter cav from the back of some nicely grouped infantry, providing a relatively standard area to cover, just some awareness on my part and some assistance from archers did the job.

I too can hold off cav (not kill them, just deny them the space around me...), but it requires dedication, and comletely denies me the opportunity to play the game I want to play (melee)

I make my point :P It doesnt take a large amount of wpf in polearm (if any) or powerstrike to effectively deter cavalry, so you can very feasibly take a 1h/shield with a war spear (and dont say thats not long enough because I use a warspear on foot and cav very rarely try anything if you point it at them) or additionally a 2h/ war spear. You dont have to fully dedicate yourself to the cause to make life a lot harder for cav. Cav need specialisation to become capable cavalry, while almost anyone can be an effective cav deterant / spear wielder with no specialisation.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:52:41 pm by Lorenzo_of_Iberia »
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Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #226 on: May 24, 2011, 06:57:56 pm »
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An additional point :P Very rarely have I heard of someone who has seen a change in their environment (that being the battlefield, general life, a game or even nature [see evolution]) say 'well I'm not changing my playstyle' and come out on top (pro tip they usually lose [see Neanderthals]) :P
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Offline Dezilagel

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #227 on: May 24, 2011, 08:08:31 pm »
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False : Archers will cause more people to take shields if possible or alternatively more ranged / cav (if a flat map)
Shielders will cause 2h's to take axes if they have any intelligence to negate the protection via shield
2h's will cause an increase in ranged (in previous patches throwers)
Cav will cause people to take high ground and be more aware / take pikes? (in theory at least :P)

Archers : Do not force me to take a shield (it helps, but it's def not a req to fight archers, 2h can be considered "weak" vs them tho), allows me to pick whatever weapon I want to use, I can roam the map freely and ninja them, stick with the group and slug it out in a melee fest, or maybe aid my team in placing ladders or w/e, point is, I have a bunch of options. Same thing for my team, everyone and their playstyle can be effective.

Shielders: Do not force upon me a certain type of equipment, can be beat with any weapon (pure archers will have a harder time, but can atleast run away). I can feint them, crush them with a hammer, break their shields with an axe or whatever. I can flank, I can stick with the group, I can camp (for whatever reason...), - again a bunch of options. Same thing goes for my team, once again everyone and their playstyle can be effective.

2h/poles: I can beat them with any weapon of choice, (no class is really "weak" against them, shielders vs axes only plausible example). I can flank, stick with the group, camp, ninja etc... No playstyle restrictions. Same thing goes for the team, no special class or playstyle is needed (except for maybe skill? :p).

Cav then: Forces either me or teammates to use pikes for defence, force me/my team to use ranged to actually bring them down. Disallows major flanking or ninja, forces my team to stck together in a big blob, can not be ran from, encourages camping (boooring....+delay)... (Unsupported with pikes, infantry with shorter weapons are helpless, archers (non-roofcamping!), are weak to them due to lack of block and bump, 1h-shield cav is also very weak against lancers and HA...)

I think you get the point.

The ideal scenario being I was fighting cav? :P this was on a pretty open map though i admit the trees helped initially as i moved towards my own team to support. And if i can deter cav from the back of some nicely grouped infantry, providing a relatively standard area to cover, just some awareness on my part and some assistance from archers did the job.

Yes, the ideal scenario: There were few cav, you had archer support, you had a pike, your teammates stayed together... I wasn't talking about the "scene" (the map) xD

I make my point :P It doesnt take a large amount of wpf in polearm (if any) or powerstrike to effectively deter cavalry, so you can very feasibly take a 1h/shield with a war spear (and dont say thats not long enough because I use a warspear on foot and cav very rarely try anything if you point it at them) or additionally a 2h/ war spear. You dont have to fully dedicate yourself to the cause to make life a lot harder for cav. Cav need specialisation to become capable cavalry, while almost anyone can be an effective cav deterant / spear wielder with no specialisation.

FYI, warspear gets outranged by heavy lance head-on (needs to be fixed imo), and while the combo does not need lots of wpf, it takes up 3-4 slots (and you need atleast 1 shield skill, unless you want your shield to break after 1 hit), and urges you to go down the 1h-shield route (awlpike works much better for the purpose, but then you are almost forced to use a 1h).

Yes, he just avoids your hoplite... He forces you into a strict playstyle, you force him to avoid your closest perimeter. (not really since your warspear is too short, but I'm presuming it's an awlpike here)

Cav does not need specilazation to become effective... The only difference between a dehorsed rider and dedicated melee inf is IF...
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 08:16:10 pm by Dezilagel »
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Offline Seawied

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #228 on: May 24, 2011, 08:20:29 pm »
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Archers : Do not force me to take a shield (it helps, but it's def not a req to fight archers, 2h can be considered "weak" vs them tho), allows me to pick whatever weapon I want to use, I can roam the map freely and ninja them, stick with the group and slug it out in a melee fest, or maybe aid my team in placing ladders or w/e, point is, I have a bunch of options. Same thing for my team, everyone and their playstyle can be effective.

Shielders: Do not force upon me a certain type of equipment, can be beat with any weapon (pure archers will have a harder time, but can atleast run away). I can feint them, crush them with a hammer, break their shields with an axe or whatever. I can flank, I can stick with the group, I can camp (for whatever reason...), - again a bunch of options. Same thing goes for my team, once again everyone and their playstyle can be effective.

2h/poles: I can beat them with any weapon of choice, (no class is really "weak" against them, shielders vs axes only plausible example). I can flank, stick with the group, camp, ninja etc... No playstyle restrictions. Same thing goes for the team, no special class or playstyle is needed (except for maybe skill? :p).

Cav then: Forces either me or teammates to use pikes for defence, force me/my team to use ranged to actually bring them down. Disallows major flanking or ninja, forces my team to stck together in a big blob... (Unsupported with pikes, infantry with shorter weapons are helpless, archers (non-roofcamping!), are weak to them due to lack of block and bump, 1h-shield cav is also very weak against lancers and HA...)

I think you get the point.



I'm going to second this as well. For most of my characters, I have a single setup for equipment. The only time I really deviate from that setup is if the opposing team is uses cavalry. If they have horses, you absolutely need to change your gear.

Shielders: An axe might work better against them, but is by no means needed. Huscarl shields are so strong that its easier to use your regular weapon against them than to try to break their shield with an axe.

Archers: Annoying, but arrows are fairly easy to dodge, and altogether don't make up a significant portion of my deaths.

Throwers: right now, there is only one thing to say about it: Bwahahhahahaahahahahahahaahah

2h/Polearm: On my shielder, I might put away my shield if they have an axe to save it for arrows, but mostly tactics against them are no different than shielders.

Cavalry: Unless you want to be made Seabreeze's mare, you have to drop some of your equipment in favor of a pike and completely change tactics against them. Oh ya, pikes will make you a walking target for archers and crossbows, since you can't use a shield. Not only do you have to change your setup to fight horses, the new setup will make you more vulnerable to every single class except cavalry.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #229 on: May 24, 2011, 09:04:16 pm »
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Except you dont need a pike at all.

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #230 on: May 24, 2011, 10:22:40 pm »
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Yeah, you can take your regular setup and accept that you are defenceless against horses.
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #231 on: May 24, 2011, 10:50:06 pm »
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I'm going to second this as well. For most of my characters, I have a single setup for equipment. The only time I really deviate from that setup is if the opposing team is uses cavalry. If they have horses, you absolutely need to change your gear. 

^
This.

Yeah, you can take your regular setup and accept that you are defenceless against horses.

^
And that.

Though often times I just refuse to change my gear setup on Gorath because I am a stubborn git and really, really, REALLY love slashing cav with my 2h Mancleaver.  Just ask Huey.  2-3 times he'll lance me, but that third time.... WHAM!  Dead cav.
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline 22nd_King_Plazek

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #232 on: May 25, 2011, 01:18:50 am »
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If you are defenseless against horses when you do not have a pike then that is your problem I believe.

I know many who are not.

Offline Seawied

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #233 on: May 25, 2011, 02:54:13 am »
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My cavalry character encourages your advice Plazek. Yes, people don't use pikes for horses. Continue to use your same setup.
So with PT >10 stones become simple too effective
:lol:

Offline Lorenzo_of_Iberia

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2011, 03:34:49 am »
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FYI, warspear gets outranged by heavy lance head-on (needs to be fixed imo), and while the combo does not need lots of wpf, it takes up 3-4 slots (and you need atleast 1 shield skill, unless you want your shield to break after 1 hit), and urges you to go down the 1h-shield route (awlpike works much better for the purpose, but then you are almost forced to use a 1h).

... this is what I don't understand, I play with many cavalry (sorta comes with being in a dedicated cav clan :P) and that includes some very intelligent lancers, so I know that they will not charge a warspear even with a heavy lance, because the warspear has an adequate reach to stall a cav player. If you cant stop a cav player with a war spear, you are doing it wrong :P


Yes, he just avoids your hoplite... He forces you into a strict playstyle, you force him to avoid your closest perimeter. (not really since your warspear is too short, but I'm presuming it's an awlpike here)

Cav does not need specilazation to become effective... The only difference between a dehorsed rider and dedicated melee inf is IF...

I am by no means limited in playstyle when defending from cav, I can deter cav and keep it away from any team mates and as soon as he disappears I can support the front with polearm, or maybe even hold my own in a polearm fashion (and yes this is with a warspear) :P. You may say 'ah but what about when the cav returns', okay with some pretty standard speakers on my pc and I can hear a horse well in time to resume horse deterrent duties. And yes I suggest that 1h/shields take a good 1 slot shield/ 1h and a polearm to help, or a 2h to take a polearm and a 2h. Unless you are a hybrid player (which have been killed) then you will be taking a full 4 slots with 2 weapon switches, you got your specialisation and a polearm for cav. It is more than practical.

As for specialisation, I'm not saying that cav are bad on foot. I am saying that a peasant/ 1h and shielder / 2h can all carry a polearm to assist with cav, while only cavalry players with riding who started on a horse at the beginning of the round can be cav. It is more than possible to have double the polearms : cavalry.

Finally to anyone who doesn't adapt to the players they are fighting in equipment then you are not playing to your maximum potential. for example If I find a team who lack much cav I will take a light lance which is far more effective vs infantry and archers, while the presence of cav or long polearms will cause me to dismount if I am outnumbered / take a heavy lance to even things in the lancer area / maybe even take a slight ranged element (I was javalry once before this confounded patch).

If you are defenseless against horses when you do not have a pike then that is your problem I believe.

I know many who are not.

I think this ties in to my point that pike is not the only polearm that is capable of anti cavalry use :D thanks Plazek ;)

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Offline Havoc134

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #235 on: May 25, 2011, 04:16:14 am »
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Downblock, 7 athletics, and spacebar are all I need to laugh at cav so long as there are only 3 or less trying to kill me at any given time. Hell, I dodged 3 cav chasing me down while I was naked with a long dagger for 1 minute before they got bored. Maybe its because I'm a cav player and I understand how they move, but whenever I play my xbow with a backup langes messer I can kill most horses and then their riders on the NA servers, or at least bore them until they leave me alone long enough for me to reload my xbow.

Offline Keshian

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #236 on: May 25, 2011, 06:13:59 am »
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Downblock, 7 athletics, and spacebar are all I need to laugh at cav so long as there are only 3 or less trying to kill me at any given time. Hell, I dodged 3 cav chasing me down while I was naked with a long dagger for 1 minute before they got bored. Maybe its because I'm a cav player and I understand how they move, but whenever I play my xbow with a backup langes messer I can kill most horses and then their riders on the NA servers, or at least bore them until they leave me alone long enough for me to reload my xbow.

Sounds like all the infantry and all the other fighters ignored you being completely defenseless while you were constantly focused on the cavalry.  That normally doesn't happen.  Also, sounds like you were facing bad cavalry that never tried to couch their lance.  Get rid of 3 bad cav, replace with 2 average cav and you would die as first horsebumps you (no fear of a silly langes messer), second lances you while you are prone on the ground.  Or just 1 good cav, quickly kills you and then moves on to rape the rest of your team with easy kills on ahighly maneuverable horse using a polearm longer than an awlpike getting 35-2.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 06:17:00 am by Keshian »
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Offline Native_ATS

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #237 on: May 25, 2011, 06:49:28 am »
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Sounds like all the infantry and all the other fighters ignored you being completely defenseless while you were constantly focused on the cavalry.  That normally doesn't happen.  Also, sounds like you were facing bad cavalry that never tried to couch their lance.  Get rid of 3 bad cav, replace with 2 average cav and you would die as first horsebumps you (no fear of a silly langes messer), second lances you while you are prone on the ground.  Or just 1 good cav, quickly kills you and then moves on to rape the rest of your team with easy kills on ahighly maneuverable horse using a polearm longer than an awlpike getting 35-2.
how many times do u see super nobbie get a killz 30 sec into the match?
u try to hit him he will lance you... pony bump into lance or just go around and rape your team.... ever try to fight off takada+noobie  :mad:

Offline Diavolo

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #238 on: May 25, 2011, 09:23:25 am »
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I think that skill should not be nerfed. The lastest posters here have talked about very good lancers. Shouldnt a very good player do good in this game? A very good 2 hander infantry will do great, why cant a very good cavalryman do great?
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Offline Cheap_Shot

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Re: Horses have no natural predators
« Reply #239 on: May 25, 2011, 11:38:39 am »
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I rarely see any single cav doing as well as described. Most averagely skilled cav get 4 or 5 kills and then their horse dies. . I do my best to make that number less but it depends on the horse and the number of them since I run out of spears so quickly. I am a hybrid thrower/accountant now. The only people I see getting swaths of kills like that are tripple heirloomed plated charger riders, with a shield and plate armor, riding around chopping.
I'll throw even when the weapons are gone. I can always throw punches and throw up.