Damage bonuses to lances

[La Makina]

The early cavalry lancers were using light lances propelled by the strength of the arm. You can see on the tapisserie de Bayeux that knights were using their lances with the arm ready to strike.

Later on in the Middle Ages, with the discovery (or rather importation) of stirrups (the straps attached to the saddle in which a rider positions his feet to have a strong stance), the art of lancing evolved and knights could use their lance blocked against the body, firmly bent on the horse's back to use the strength and speed of the horse to increase the power of the lance attack (what we call couching the lance).

In c-RPG, when a rider uses a polearm attack (LMB attack) from the horse's back, he gets a damage bonus from the speed of the horse (and from the power strike skill, afaik). This results in very powerful attack, with 99% change of killing targets in one hit. Couching the lance is not really used as it is much more difficult to pass and the extra bonus to damage is just not necessary.

However, using the speed of the horse to boost a polearm attack could not (and did not) work IRL because of a simple physics rule. The power that the lance conveys to the target is reciprocally conveyed to the arm holding it. In simple words: a cavalryman holding his lance in one hand could not sustain a hit on an (armored) target without breaking his wrist or, in the better case, losing the grip.

So much for the historical and physical justifications. Here is my suggestion:

- Polearm attack from horse's back should get the damage bonus from powerstrike only. This attack propelled by the rider arm's strength is fast and swift, similar to an infantry attack but from a higher position.
- Couching the lance should get the damage bonus of the horse speed only. Couching the lance is an advanced technique, more difficult to place (no spinning lolstab) but would be the supreme attack guarantying a kill in one hit.

This would prevent cavalry from piling up one-hit-kills with simple polearms attack and would make the couching attacks (and the great lance) worthwhile as they should have always been.

Feel free to contribute but please keep it constructive.

EDIT: added a poll

[EponiCo]

Well, a small speed bonus makes sense, since it's also about momentum, but you are right. Though, I don't see a real need to do it.

[Digglez]

- Polearm attack from horse's back should get the damage bonus from powerstrike only. This attack propelled by the rider arm's strength is fast and swift, similar to an infantry attack but from a higher position.

the severity of a crash/impact is measured by the change in velocity.  The horses speed figures into this velocity, as the weapon is coming in 20-35mph faster than it would have been otherwise

Melee attacks from horseback SHOULD get speed bonus from horse

[Seawied]

The game already reduces the speed damage bonus applied from horseback. Part of the problem you outlined comes from horses being ridiculously fast in c-RPG.

[Tears of Destiny]

I am voting no, as this suggestion mainly concerns itself with realism as a primary, and game-play as a secondary. If horses were more resilient (As in no 2Her one shotting the armoured one, or even the lightly armoured ones), then I would perhaps consider this, but as of this moment, couching is a lackluster tactic more often then not due to the extreme risk.

Realism is fine, in my eyes, but only if it maintains game balance (real life was anything but balanced, and often boring).

[Peasant_Woman]

You forget one thing; in gameplay terms the stab from horseback can simply be downblocked forever by a skilled infantry player, chance to be blocked/more damage or risk/reward. Couched lance ignores blocks and shatters shields instantly yet is harder to set up and difficult to land on an aware opponent.

[La Makina]

@Digglez. I get your point. With a lance at speed, it makes sense that there is a speed bonus. However, in our situation the rider does not drop/throw the lance (nor the lance stayed empaled into a poor lad). Holding the lance, the rider would not resist the pressure and would recoil immediately upon impact. Therefore the rider needs to be strong enough (= power strike) to exploit the speed bonus to a certain extent. The speed advantage is capped to a certain limit and this limit is the PS skill.

Above a certain speed, the rider have to couch the lance to effectively transfer the speed of the horse into the lance and deliver monstrous damages.

@ Tears of Destiny: actually I was thinking of game first, the realism analysis came second. Cavalry would probably go more for couching attacks with a great lance (a useless weapon so far) which needs more time to use. They would remain the biggest threat on the battlefield but they might prefer to regroup and charge repeatedly (this would be beautiful, wouldn't it?). A single rider could still harass infantry but he would hardly be able to kill 10 infantry per minute.

@ Seawied. I think the problem in c-RPG is more their excessive acceleration/deceleration and their turning ratio. Horses are really fast IRL.

@ Peasant_Woman. The rider just needs to bump his target with the horse before the attack to make the target drop the downblock.

[Tears of Destiny]

Fascinating, certainly worth some reconsidering on my part.

This might lend some incentive to use the "Couch-Only" items, besides what they have been relegated to now as novelty items.

[Sammael]

This might lend some incentive to use the "Couch-Only" items, besides what they have been relegated to now as novelty items.

I full agree with this point. That is one reason I was a bit excited that directional stab was removed from horseback lancing, (for a day) even though it was pretty annoying. It would be nice to see more 1h swords, great lances, etc. from horseback. Removing the speed bonus from horseback stabbing would be a great way to encourage couch lancing and the use of alternate weapons from horseback.

I won't speak to the realism point because I feel it is far, far less important than gameplay balance.

[Torp]

then we atleast want a re-buffed heavy lance!

anyways, my char has a very strong wrist, so he can get dmg bonus from both ps and horse speed

[Tzar]

The early cavalry lancers were using light lances propelled by the strength of the arm. You can see on the tapisserie de Bayeux that knights were using their lances with the arm ready to strike.

Later on in the Middle Ages, with the discovery (or rather importation) of stirrups (the straps attached to the saddle in which a rider positions his feet to have a strong stance), the art of lancing evolved and knights could use their lance blocked against the body, firmly bent on the horse's back to use the strength and speed of the horse to increase the power of the lance attack (what we call couching the lance).

In c-RPG, when a rider uses a polearm attack (LMB attack) from the horse's back, he gets a damage bonus from the speed of the horse (and from the power strike skill, afaik). This results in very powerful attack, with 99% change of killing targets in one hit. Couching the lance is not really used as it is much more difficult to pass and the extra bonus to damage is just not necessary.

However, using the speed of the horse to boost a polearm attack could not (and did not) work IRL because of a simple physics rule. The power that the lance conveys to the target is reciprocally conveyed to the arm holding it. In simple words: a cavalryman holding his lance in one hand could not sustain a hit on an (armored) target without breaking his wrist or, in the better case, losing the grip.

So much for the historical and physical justifications. Here is my suggestion:

- Polearm attack from horse's back should get the damage bonus from powerstrike only. This attack propelled by the rider arm's strength is fast and swift, similar to an infantry attack but from a higher position.
- Couching the lance should get the damage bonus of the horse speed only. Couching the lance is an advanced technique, more difficult to place (no spinning lolstab) but would be the supreme attack guarantying a kill in one hit.

This would prevent cavalry from piling up one-hit-kills with simple polearms attack and would make the couching attacks (and the great lance) worthwhile as they should have always been.

Feel free to contribute but please keep it constructive.

EDIT: added a poll

no.

Constructive?? hmn well i geuss since we lancers still rape everything we are fine..

Also we all rdy got our easy mode back from pure whine after the first patch in between hot fix so maybe keep it up maybe chadz will buff us again seams like it worked the last time 

FYI: Im lancer myself and i think its fine the way it is i honestly cant see why we need a buff its still easy to rape infantry and archers and other lancers with the current lance the way it is.

If u just wanna 1 hit people just couch them...

Nwm i need glasses 

[Torp]

no.

Constructive?? hmn well i geuss since we lancers still rape everything we are fine..

Also we all rdy got our easy mode back from pure whine after the first patch in between hot fix so maybe keep it up maybe chadz will buff you again seams like it worked the last time 

FYI: Im lancer myself and i think its fine the way it is i honestly cant see why we need a buff its still easy to rape infantry and archers and other lancers with the current lance the way it is.

If u just wanna 1 hit people just couch them...

you know that he is suggesting a nerf, right...?

[Magikarp]

What you are basically saying: nerf cavalry damage by removing their speed bonus, giving them worse damage than stabbing on foot, which is just ridiculous.

What are you smoking? The whole point of using that expensive mount is to give you more speed and damage.

[Sammael]

What you are basically saying: nerf cavalry damage by removing their speed bonus, giving them worse damage than stabbing on foot, which is just ridiculous.

What are you smoking? The whole point of using that expensive mount is to give you more speed and damage.

There are other ways to compensate for this. You could potentially increase the duration of couches to make it easier to use, decrease the cooldown period, increase lance speed back to where it was pre-patch, etc. This might increase diversity in cav playstyle, rather than stab, stab, stab, stab...

[Magikarp]

There are other ways to compensate for this. You could potentially increase the duration of couches to make it easier to use, decrease the cooldown period, increase lance speed back to where it was pre-patch, etc. This might increase diversity in cav playstyle, rather than stab, stab, stab, stab...

May I ask why? Couching is way too risky to be used a lot, you should know this.
Your suggestion only applies to people wearing plate armour and chargers in singleplayer.