A Great Debate: IF vs. WM -- What's your pick?

[Dezilagel]

Never had a single point in IF.

I like hybridizing, as well as having high WPF so WM is a natural pick.

Any spare points i put into shield, for utility.

[WITCHCRAFT]

This topic is about dedicated melee only.

Dedicated class. You can play dedicated ranged too you know...

[Kafein]

I think you need to cast another poll, separating NA and EU + separating ranged and melee

[Rhaelys]

Dedicated class. You can play dedicated ranged too you know...

Yes, I thought about that right around the 2nd page's time of arrival Tank. And I believe if I had specified then yes, the voting would probably be slightly different...but I gather from posts here that most players realize it is in reference to Melee. Perhaps just the looky-lous may bump WM's votes because they are ranged

[Cyclopsided]

The amounts of times I have been called a high-agi spammer when I have 0 WM on most of my melee characters should note to you how little it effects gameplay.
footwork effects weapon speed a billion times more than WM does.
90% of your increased speed will come from moving the right directions at the right times
an additional 15% will come from athletics making those movements faster
and 5%ish will be form wm making your weapon swing faster.

it is just so marginal. The damage bonus can be worth it though: I would choose 7 WM over an additional PS. So don't do any dumb conversions that way lol.


IF on the other hand is amazingly useful, especially to lower-mid armored characters. This is the biggest misunderstanding people have of IF characters, they assume they are all being used for heavy armored players. Which is fine if you want to be a slug, but they completely discount the much better reasons to use IF for medium and light armor. I play almost exclusively in dresses. IF makes me go from being able to survive 2-3 hits to being able to survive 5-6 hits. I can get shot by an arbalest and survive vs dying to a body shot. I can survive 4 more arrows than not. I can survive teamwounds.
I can make Mistakes in the heat of battle two or more times than if I was an agility build.
And thus, KDR raises. I have fun. None of the small balance changes make you angry. You survive all the petty shit that makes WM-stacking players go apeshit over. IF makes the game more fun since you don't need to rage at it over dumb deaths

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If I wear Low-weight gear and have 5 athletics, effectively making me faster movement speed than someone with 8 athletics and heavy armor -- except since I stacked IF I have the same amount of survivability as them.
I am faster or equal movement speed + Do more damage + same or more survivability.
I Will never understand players with more than 6 ath and heavy armor. They should just get IF and lower weight armor for same survivability but better everything else.

And that is why My characters usually have plenty of IF.

[oohillac]

I notice a huge difference between 1 WM and 6 WM, and prefer the higher WM if I have the option.

Currently a 30/10 (level 31), so IF-heavy.

[Gurnisson]

snip

What's your opinion of a 0 wm pikeman/mauler? I would definitely get WM as those classes myself, and being a piker on my main, I pick WM over IF.

WM is an offensive skill, adding a bit of damage, compared to the defensive skill ironflesh. I always feel bad when I survive a lot of hits in melee because of high hp, since I believe making mistakes should be fatal. Knowing that I won't survive too much made my overall play and decision making on the battlefield better.

[Cyclopsided]

What's your opinion of a 0 wm pikeman/mauler? I would definitely get WM as those classes myself, and being a piker on my main, I pick WM over IF.

WM is an offensive skill, adding a bit of damage, compared to the defensive skill ironflesh. I always feel bad when I survive a lot of hits in melee because of high hp, since I believe making mistakes should be fatal. Knowing that I won't survive too much made my overall play and decision making on the battlefield better.

I played a high IF pikeman for well over a year as my main melee character. Definitely the most effective pikeman build I ever used was 24-15 with maxing my PS, IF, ath, and leftovers for wm. [Light/medium armor]
I believe people's views on IF are completely wrong as seeing it as a defensive skill. IF lets you play more aggressively and do stuff that would otherwise be suicidal.
In the case of a pikeman, it lets you survive several more arrows as you assist your teammates on the front lines. It lets you survive that stray hit or two that sneaks past your teammates. It lets you risk those chambers when that 2h stabs at you.

0 WM mauler is stupid don't do it. WM has increasingly more effect on weapon speed the slower the weapon, stack WM for a mauler don't be dumb. It can be the difference between being interrupted right before a crushthrough or not.

But I definitely agree that having good decision making is essential -- don't let being able to survive a few more mistakes on the battlefield   MAKE you make more mistakes. Does that make sense?

[Gurnisson]

I guess you wouldn't use the build I'm going for then. At 33 it'll be 24/21 with 8 ps, 7 ath and 5 wm. All wpf in polearms
 
I usually had 2-4 IF points before, but I don't really notice much of a difference between a couple of points or no points. It would either be full investment or no investment for me, and I usually do the latter.

[Cyclopsided]

I guess you wouldn't use the build I'm going for then. At 33 it'll be 24/21 with 8 ps, 7 ath and 5 wm. All wpf in polearms
 
I usually had 2-4 IF points before, but I don't really notice much of a difference between a couple of points or no points. It would either be full investment or no investment for me, and I usually do the latter.

You are right, I would have done 21/21 in favor of maxing more skill points instead of one more PS.

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lvl 33 // 21 strength // 21 agility // 7 PS // 7 IF // 7 Ath // 5 WM

It would be much much more survivable // alternatively, go for same survivability and lower armor, and thus be faster on the battlefield and more useful as a piker. Which is what I would do.

[Tydeus]

IF on the other hand is amazingly useful, especially to lower-mid armored characters. This is the biggest misunderstanding people have of IF characters, they assume they are all being used for heavy armored players. Which is fine if you want to be a slug, but they completely discount the much better reasons to use IF for medium and light armor. I play almost exclusively in dresses. IF makes me go from being able to survive 2-3 hits to being able to survive 5-6 hits. I can get shot by an arbalest and survive vs dying to a body shot. I can survive 4 more arrows than not. I can survive teamwounds.
I can make Mistakes in the heat of battle two or more times than if I was an agility build.
And thus, KDR raises. I have fun. None of the small balance changes make you angry. You survive all the petty shit that makes WM-stacking players go apeshit over. IF makes the game more fun since you don't need to rage at it over dumb deaths

The reason why people say IF is so much more effective for high str builds, isn't due to a lack of usefulness for low to medium armored or lowish to medium str characters, it's that your effective health pool increase per point of IF rises with an increase in armor. Clearly you get more survivability out of stacking hp with armor, than only doing one of the two. So I think stating that IF is "especially useful to lower-mid armored characters" is incorrect due to what you're suggesting. That's not to say getting IF on a low-medium armored target is a poor decision, it's just that there is clearly a very good reason to get it with a highly armored character.

I do the opposite of you on my STF characters, I don't get IF and instead I get extra athletics and wear heavy armor. Two builds I run are 12/30 and 15/27. My 12 str build has the highest possible armor value in all slots other than boots that you can get with 12 str, and my 15 str(sometimes 14) character uses plate armor. Sometimes I do an extra conversion and get 1 extra athletics for the hell of it (20 point conversion build). It's certainly not the most effective build overall, but the survivability you are capable of is really quite amusing. My 12 str, 62 body armor character can consistently force bounces on 1h swords and completely nullify damage entirely from certain archers. Armor is without a doubt, the single most effective tool for increasing one's survivability.

Similarly, your weapon has more of an effect on your damage than your character build. Why's this matter? Because nearly everyone chooses equipment after they have their build created and what you should actually be doing, is creating your build around specific weapons/armors. The player > the equipment > the build.

Sorry for seemingly being off topic, but even if you narrow it to a melee only discussion, you're still left with many things to think about.

[Cyclopsided]

yes tydeus, I agree with your points -- But I am just pointing out that people completely neglect the idea of IF + light/medium armor because they ONLY think about the synergy of heavy armor and IF.

"oh look at that guy in a leather coat , he will die easily" But the leathercoat is +3 with +3 heavy gauntlets and they have something like 37 body armor for 3.5 weight, and with all that IF they can take a lot of hits while being fast on foot.
That is nothing to ever neglect, the value of NOT being seen as a threat, or alternatively as being seen as an easy target.

[owens]

21/15

always every gen all day every class

[Cyclopsided]

21/15

always every gen all day every class

21/15 (lvl 30) (1h/shield) is one of very few perfect builds. Every stat it uses is maxed. It is balanced perfectly.

[Muki]

Ill go with WM since the weapon speed you get from wpf will always be more useful to me than IF; than again I'm a 18/18 build so I get the best from both I guess.