English Bill and Swiss Halberd rebalance suggestion

[Teeth]

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These two weapons occupy quite a unique role in the polearms section (and they look way fucking cool). They are two directional, of which we have many, but what sets these two apart is that their overheads are as good, if not better than their stabs. These weapons provide the longest, high damage overheads in the game. However, the turn rate tweak hit these weapons hard, especially the English Bill. The new turnrates are calculated using weight and length of weapons. Now these weapons score quite high on both. I can't seem to find the formula but I remember doing the calculations for a few weapons and the English Bill got the same turn rate value as the Great Maul and the Pike, the heaviest and longest weapon in the game. The minimum turn rate of 5, compared to 14 in Native and 7 in cRPG before the tweak. This turn rate of 5 does barely allow any turning. Now trust me when I say that for a 2D support polearm turn rate matters a lot for the effectivity of the weapon.

Now the pike, although underpowered as well in my opinion, can still function similar to the way it has before, because 10 degrees of turning amount to quite a great distance at the length at which the pike operates. The Great Maul can basically only do overheads in a straight line, but it has a bazillion blunt damage and crushthrough. Now the English Bill and Swiss Halberd are not as extremely long and not clearly OP and they feel pretty damn gimped now. Case and point, how often do you see either of these weapons being used?

In my opinion these weapons should be compared with other 2D polearms of similar length which I have displayed below. The stab damages are comparable, length varies. Now all these 2D polearms are clearly meant for stabbing with the overhead only serving as a downblock breaker. The length to weight ratio is higher on the Swiss Halberd and English Bill than any of these weapons. Of these the Long Awlpike is a way better choice than the English Bill and the Ashwood Pike is a way better choice than the Swiss Halberd.

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In my opinion, 2D support polearms of the same length should have similar turnrates. Currently the biggest effect that weight has on how a weapon performs is on its turn rate, stunning weapons, getting stunned and movement speed reduction all have less significant effects. I think the low turn rate and thus the weight is too big a disadvantage for the Swiss Halberd, English Bill and while we're at it, the Partisan. Sure a weapon may look heavier, but balance takes precedence over realism and what is the point of giving a weapon stats that fit its look when you never actually see it being used anyway.

Now of course the devs have said that they are planning to implement weapon specific turn rates at some point, but we all know that the ETA of that is December 2010. So I suggest the following changes to be done to the weight of overhead support polearms to bring them back in the game until then. Due to the polearm stab being a faster and in my opinion better animation than the polearm overhead this will not make these weapons too strong, as they do have significantly weaker stabs.

English Bill       : From 4 to 2.8 (Same as the Long Awlpike which has 11 more length and is therefore still less gimped by the turn rate)
Swiss Halberd : From 3.2 to 2.5 (Same as most of the 2D stab polearms, closest in length is the awlpike which has 5 more pierce, so I'd say that is okay)
Partisan           : From 3 to 2.5 (Same as most of the 2D stab polearms, but this still makes the Partisan a complete turd, buff its stats. 37c stab simply does not compare to 32p + 9 length)

tl;dr version: Gib turnrate pls

You should probably up the ashwood pike weight to 2.3 or 2.5 as well

Or just remove the boring turn rate nerf altogether

[Idzo]

+1

I want to do roflochopper. ( I never did it before)

[sdfjkln]

Case and point, how often do you see either of these weapons being used?

That's the laziest argument ever.

And I don't know how you can praise the overhead damage of the Swiss Halberd and still say the ashwood pike is better with its 18 blunt overhead(having a better turn rate still isn't better than the Swiss Halberds damage).

[Teeth]

having a better turn rate still isn't better than the Swiss Halberds damage

You clearly haven't used these type of weapons much, cause it simply is.

There is also the 2 speed, 4 length and 2 stab damage difference. When backstabbing or supporting, 30 pierce stab is a lot better to kill someone quick than 38 cut overhead. When not backstabbing or supporting, you are going to have a hard time hitting anyone with the Swiss turnrate, cause its easy to block and you are not going to surprise anyone.

The argument could be called lazy, I'd rather call it quick and effective. The amount of use a weapon gets is in my opinion definitely a measure of its strength.

[Idzo]

You are going to have a hard time hitting anyone with the Swiss turnrate, cause its easy to block and you are not going to surprise anyone.

+1 again.

I have +3 Swiss and i didn't use it at all last few months.. before turn rate nerf i was able to duel with it... now its almost useless...take practice but i dont have that much time.

[Jarlek]

As the only one who I see regularly use a +3 English Bill on the EU servers... Don't you fucking make it lighter. Sure, the turn speed sucks because of the weight (I've never had a problem with turn speeds myself), but taking away this weapons chance of stunning a lot of weapons is even worse than having the reduced turn speed.

There's only 2 real problems with the english bill as it is now.
1. It is WAY too expensive for how effective it is.
2. Goddamn greatswords have a much better practical stab reach than you.

1 can be fixed easily, not like it's gonna unbalance the game or strategus to make 2d polearms cheaper in general. 2 should be fixed by reducing damage reduction when you are in the longest part of the stab animation. Now, hitting in the closer parts of the polearm stab animation is where it does most damage, not at when it is in the furthest away from you.

[Teeth]

As the only one who I see regularly use a +3 English Bill on the EU servers... Don't you fucking make it lighter. Sure, the turn speed sucks because of the weight (I've never had a problem with turn speeds myself), but taking away this weapons chance of stunning a lot of weapons is even worse than having the reduced turn speed.

I honestly don't understand how you can use this weapon and not have any problems with the turn rate. Surely stunning weapons has a rather small role in the big picture, especially with people just being able to block twice, when you compare it to your ability to aim and target switch?

I disagree with cost being a good balance method. As an infantryman I have never even considered upkeep as a factor in my equipment choices and I think that goes for most people. Changing the price won't make people use a bad weapon I am afraid.

In my experience top damage is like 10-20% before maximum reach and long weapons do reduced damage when it comes to stabbing close. Of course 30-ish pierce is still devestating so you won't notice it much, but one or two shotting people happens at almost maximum reach.

[owens]

@teeth if the weight is reduced all of a sudden these weapons no longer stun and become much worse support weapons.





Simply the high weight is advantageous and they are not meant for any 1v1 at all.

I would like to see both having shield breaker

[Teeth]

@teeth if the weight is reduced all of a sudden these weapons no longer stun and become much worse support weapons.

Simply the high weight is advantageous and they are not meant for any 1v1 at all.

I would like to see both having shield breaker

Dunno how they do it down under but stun is barely used up here, for good reasons too, stunning someone does not prevent him for blocking twice. The quality of a support weapon is hardly defined by its ability to stun people. If I am supporting teammates fighting a group of people, what use is it to prevent one of them attacking, compared to doing quick target switch and overheading someone in the face when he isn't expecting it? What is the use of preventing one guy to attack for a second, compared to being able to threaten 5 guys at once due to faster turning.

Supporting with a long weapon is all about threatening as much enemy players as you can and thus preventing to completely focus on attacking, giving your teammates an edge. It is also about eliminating players quickly due to being able to attack him when your teammate is able to do so as well. Stun barely helps you doing either of these things and while stunning someone sometimes is useful when you are ganking one guy, you can also simply synchronize your swing with someone elses and just outright kill him instead.

Just seems to me that you are both vastly overestimating the usefulness of stun and gravely underestimating the usefulness of turn rate for support weapons, perhaps it is a difference in playstyles, I dunno.

[Molly]

I am not much into those theoretical things but stunning an enemy gives the teammate a free hit, no?

Sounds like proper support to me.

[Jarlek]

I honestly don't understand how you can use this weapon and not have any problems with the turn rate. Surely stunning weapons has a rather small role in the big picture, especially with people just being able to block twice, when you compare it to your ability to aim and target switch?

I disagree with cost being a good balance method. As an infantryman I have never even considered upkeep as a factor in my equipment choices and I think that goes for most people. Changing the price won't make people use a bad weapon I am afraid.

In my experience top damage is like 10-20% before maximum reach and long weapons do reduced damage when it comes to stabbing close. Of course 30-ish pierce is still devestating so you won't notice it much, but one or two shotting people happens at almost maximum reach.

I don't have a problem with bad turn speed. I never had. I've always been good at predicting where people are moving, so personally it's not a problem. Yes, they should be buffed turn-wise, but not on the cost of the extra weight. Remember that they are working on making turn speed a seperate stat and NOT based on weight/speed. Devs already said they will make the 2d polearms better then, as they were never meant to be affected this much by the change.

The stun really is that important. I don't know with you, but I always try to use block stun if I know I got the heaviest weapon (or blunt). Persoanlly, I think it's the best way to kill people in groupfighting, since a good stun means my ally is sure to get a free hit, which means I get a free hit after, which together with 34p to the head, almost always means a dead enemy.

As for cost: YOU may not consider it, but many people do. That being said, I mainly want most 2d (non hoplite) polearms to be cheaper so they become more viable in strategus. Right now, getting 2d polearms for a strat army is retarded, apart from the bamboo spear, which is just used as a pike anyway. Cheaper 2d polearms means more varied strategus armies.

[Gurnisson]

I've used both of these weapons a lot.

Bill is a great stunner, and does make it nice if you support any player who's not awful at the game. You'll definitely give a few free hits on enemies with no shield because of the high chance of stunning. However, the turning is trash, absolute garbage, and I hope they could fix that without removing a lot of the weight, since the stunning is part of its niche. As of now, Bill is still a good 2d polearm, but that's because 2d polearms suck in general. The best ones are the ones that are quite long and can be used with a shield (light lance, lance, ashwood, bamboo), because hopliting is a lot stronger than 2d polearms without shield. I've never understood why English Bill is that expensive and have such a high strength requirement. In comparison, all the newest 2d polearms got 12 req, long awlpike 14, but English Bill is way up at 17 for whatever reason, and it's also the most expensive one.

Halberd is shorter, faster and a shield breaker and I find it quite balanced compared to the Bill. However, like most 2d polearms I don't find it balanced to the other support classes like long spear or hoplites. They're just massively inferior ever since the turn rate nerf hurt their 1v1 potential massively.

However, both those weapons are bad compared to the Ranseur and Spetum. Buff English Bill and Swiss Halberd! Buff 2d polearms in general!

[Jarlek]

I've used both of these weapons a lot.

Bill is a great stunner, and does make it nice if you support any player who's not awful at the game. You'll definitely give a few free hits on enemies with no shield because of the high chance of stunning. However, the turning is trash, absolute garbage, and I hope they could fix that without removing a lot of the weight, since the stunning is part of its niche. As of now, Bill is still a good 2d polearm, but that's because 2d polearms suck in general. The best ones are the ones that are quite long and can be used with a shield (light lance, lance, ashwood, bamboo), because hopliting is a lot stronger than 2d polearms without shield. I've never understood why English Bill is that expensive and have such a high strength requirement. In comparison, all the newest 2d polearms got 12 req, long awlpike 14, but English Bill is way up at 17 for whatever reason, and it's also the most expensive one.

Halberd is shorter, faster and a shield breaker and I find it quite balanced compared to the Bill. However, like most 2d polearms I don't find it balanced to the other support classes like long spear or hoplites. They're just massively inferior ever since the turn rate nerf hurt their 1v1 potential massively.

However, both those weapons are bad compared to the Ranseur and Spetum. Buff English Bill and Swiss Halberd! Buff 2d polearms in general!

Amen.

[Teeth]

I am not much into those theoretical things but stunning an enemy gives the teammate a free hit, no?

As far as I know stunning an enemy disables him for starting an attack for the duration of the stun without restricting his blocking at all, unless they changed it in cRPG. Which used to be useful as people were a lot worse at blocking and they would get confused and failblock, now it mostly results in them realizing they are stunned fast enough to do a quick block.

Remember that they are working on making turn speed a seperate stat and NOT based on weight/speed. Devs already said they will make the 2d polearms better then, as they were never meant to be affected this much by the change.

I honestly doubt if we are ever going to see this, as they stated it is a lot of work. Although if it is just a matter of determining the specific turnrates I am sure the eventually selected balance panel can do it. If the work is in actually implementing it, this could be years. Until that time no overhead support polearms for me, unless they reduce the turn rate for them

[Jarlek]

As far as I know stunning an enemy disables him for starting an attack for the duration of the stun without restricting his blocking at all, unless they changed it in cRPG. Which used to be useful as people were a lot worse at blocking and they would get confused and failblock, now it mostly results in them realizing they are stunned fast enough to do a quick block.

You really didn't spend enough time as 1h no shield :/ Being blockstunned also stops you from changing the block direction for a short time. It sort of locks the block in place for a short time, then you can act again. You always got enough time to block the second attack though, but if you block and get blockstunned, and another guy swings right after, then you got no way to block it.

I honestly doubt if we are ever going to see this, as they stated it is a lot of work. Although if it is just a matter of determining the specific turnrates I am sure the eventually selected balance panel can do it. If the work is in actually implementing it, this could be years. Until that time no overhead support polearms for me, unless they reduce the turn rate for them

Don't say that! I'm naive and In chadz I Trust! Devs said they would make it! They have to! D:

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Seriously though, most people never thought they would never do a lot of the things they said they would, just because it took time. Just give them time and it will be made!

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Then again, I'm still waiting for Stronghold....

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Which WILL come in the game they are making thing they may or may not be working on! Mark my words!