English Bill and Swiss Halberd rebalance suggestion

[Teeth]

You really didn't spend enough time as 1h no shield :/

That is the funny thing, I don't recall being blockstunned at all during all my time as a 1h without shield. I realized this later as a polearmer and went to the duel server, where I couldn't block stun a niuweidao with a friggin long bardiche no matter how hard I tried. I'd swear they accidentally removed block stun a while ago for some time. Although offtopic, I had to mention this.

But yeah, you are right. The block does seem to stick for a short while. Still, just synchronizing your overhead with your teammates swings is effective as well.

[Jarlek]

That is the funny thing, I don't recall being blockstunned at all during all my time as a 1h without shield. I realized this later as a polearmer and went to the duel server, where I couldn't block stun a niuweidao with a friggin long bardiche no matter how hard I tried. I'd swear they accidentally removed block stun a while ago for some time. Although offtopic, I had to mention this.

But yeah, you are right. The block does seem to stick for a short while. Still, just synchronizing your overhead with your teammates swings is effective as well.

Yeah, it might be that they bugged block stun for some time. Wouldn't surprise me

Syncronizing the overhead with a swing also works, but then you have the chance that they will block one of them. Them blocking the sideswing but getting hit by the bills overhead is better than them blocking the overhead, gets stunned, takes the sideswing and then the follow-up overhead/stab from the bill.

[owens]

Block stun is not a big issue unless you are dueling good players or fighting 2 players at once, against Kadeth or some of PK's better members one block stun can be duel over.

In regards to the bill and halberd they have a place in the game and if they were to be as good as they historically were %80 of players would use them, fortunatly real strategies dont work all that well in cRPG.

@teeth if you are a late blocker eg block at he last minute than block stun wont effect you too badly and as 1H no shield you probably had high ath and stayed out of enemy weapon reach during their "turn" to attack and got close afterwards. I also noticed a lot of American players dont take full advantage of it in 1v1 often attacking the same direction twice when the enemy was clearly stunned I imagine its the same in Europe. In AUS we only duel so we do everything we can to get kills.

[Casimir]

I miss playing polearm only due to the English bill.

[Tindel]

Just be carefull so you dont end up buffing knitler, that could become very unpopular   

[Tydeus]

Fun weapons. Made another thread for polearms and these, among other bi-directional weapons were included, although I didn't propose the same exact numbers Teeth offered. The weapons do a very large amount of damage for their length, so I feel having mobility on the lower end of the spectrum is deserving.

[Jarlek]

Fun weapons. Made another thread for polearms and these, among other bi-directional weapons were included, although I didn't propose the same exact numbers Teeth offered. The weapons do a very large amount of damage for their length, so I feel having mobility on the lower end of the spectrum is deserving.

Their length? Yes. They reach? No.

The stab of a Halberd is lower than the stab of a greatsword. The greatswords got sideswings.

Then we also got the glance sweetspots from animations. The max reach of my english bill is longer than all 2h swords, but since it has a seriously high glance chance at the max range, the practical range is shorter than greatswords. Add that the english bill only got 1 more stab than a german greatsword and you tell me, with a straight face, that it does enough damage for it's reach.

[Gurnisson]

Fun weapons. Made another thread for polearms and these, among other bi-directional weapons were included, although I didn't propose the same exact numbers Teeth offered. The weapons do a very large amount of damage for their length, so I feel having mobility on the lower end of the spectrum is deserving.

The higher length and damage of 2d polearms (which are both arguably when you compare them) compared to the greatsword family doesn't warrant the loss of the 2 best attacking directions in the game (turn-nerf made cRPG more focused on swinging weapons than stabbers). That it feels easier to support someone with a german greatsword than with a halberd or a bill, while having a lot better 1v1 capabilities, is just sad.

[Tydeus]

You're too focused on thrusts, jarlek
English Bill
weapon length: 174
weight: 4
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 174
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
31p unloomed on an overhead, polearm animation or not, that 174 length is a lot of reach. The bill has more damage on its overhead than with its thrust(excluding hits with good speed bonuses). Indeed the turn speed was problematic when I was stuck 1v1ing, but only when I tried to start a thrust from too far to the right/left of my opponent and never with an overhead. The last time I played I averaged a 4:1 k:d over the course of four maps with 80+ players in the server. I got valour nearly every single round.

Anyway, it's a minor difference between Teeth's proposed numbers and what I proposed. I don't plan on assuming the weapons are perfect after implementation, if they still need work, then I've nothing against making another tweak thread. Ideally, I'd like to rebalance the bi-directional weapons, or at least some of them. There's room for a much faster bi-directional weapon that allows everyone to utilize the overhead against all opponents and wouldn't require a specific build to do so.

[Jarlek]

You're too focused on thrusts, jarlek
English Bill
weapon length: 174
weight: 4
difficulty: 17
speed rating: 89
weapon length: 174
thrust damage: 28 pierce
swing damage: 31 pierce
slots: 2
Can't use on horseback
Can't sheath
31p unloomed on an overhead, polearm animation or not, that 174 length is a lot of reach. The bill has more damage on its overhead than with its thrust(excluding hits with good speed bonuses). Indeed the turn speed was problematic when I was stuck 1v1ing, but only when I tried to start a thrust from too far to the right/left of my opponent and never with an overhead. The last time I played I averaged a 4:1 k:d over the course of four maps with 80+ players in the server. I got valour nearly every single round.

Anyway, it's a minor difference between Teeth's proposed numbers and what I proposed. I don't plan on assuming the weapons are perfect after implementation, if they still need work, then I've nothing against making another tweak thread. Ideally, I'd like to rebalance the bi-directional weapons, or at least some of them. There's room for a much faster bi-directional weapon that allows everyone to utilize the overhead against all opponents and wouldn't require a specific build to do so.

And you fail to realize the overhead is so slow anyone with a sideswing can just spam you. Yes, it has a lot of reach, but again, the greatsword stabs rival it lengthwise, while still having their sideswings.

[Tydeus]

And you fail to realize the overhead is so slow anyone with a sideswing can just spam you.

And you simply fail to read.   

There's room for a much faster bi-directional weapon that allows everyone to utilize the overhead against all opponents and wouldn't require a specific build to do so.

It's easy to use the overhead when you're playing support, I hope no one is arguing that. In a 1v1 though, you have to back pedal, hard. Not only that, but if your opponent is being aggressive in footwork and trying to spam your overheads, you'll have to have a fair bit more athletics than what they have. But what you do is simple enough, you just start your overhead after you block one of their attacks, then stop backpedaling and go into full strafe mode when your opponent uses a horizontal attack and you move away from their weapon. Moving away from their weapon like this will give you a significantly more time to land your swing, even if they're turning into their swing. If you're like me, and have 62 body armor loomed, 1hers will just bounce on your armor and most 2hers will be too slow to be able to spam through your well timed and well executed attack.

Again, it's certainly not as easy to do as spamming thrusts with a greatsword or hilt slashing with a longsword, and there are other factors aside from your execution that matter as well; you simply can't do well in 1v1s with some builds as you can with others.

[Tomas]

My comments

1) Agree with dropping he weights to make them a bit more viable
2) However going to 2.5 and 2.8 is a bit extreme as they do have significantly higher swing damage than the other weapons at that weight

Therefore I'd say 3.4 for the English Bill and 2.8 for the Swiss Halberd would be about right for a test run.

[FRANK_THE_TANK]

Sounds good.