Community Inquiry/Discussion - WPF Formula Related

[Tydeus]

In preparation of implementing new wpf/wpp formulas, I have realized there are a few generally unasked questions that really should be addressed. While I have my own opinions of what’s what, I might have overlooked or misjudged something. If you’re going to take part in this discussion, I would ask that you please at least try to elaborate on your answers. Now, here are my simple questions:

How difficult do you find it to hybridize a character?

Do you feel specialization is properly rewarded?

Edit: Please remember to answer the poll.

[DUKE DICKBUTT]

I tried doing a gen of evenly split 1h/pole arm (aka hoplite) and I never switched weapons because it took too long.  I got hit most times I changed my weapon.  Also took too long to take off my shield and swing my pole arm.  Meanwhile, you can have your shield broken, and then block the next attack.  Shield breaking should surprise your character.  Whoever broke the shield shouldn't then get a free hit, but at least a half beat.  Maybe high WPF can speed up weapon switching?

[bruce]

How difficult do you find it to hybridize a character?

Depends what type of character. Most melee weapons work just fine at 100 wpf - this means a few more points of WM if you want to have two proficiencies (eg, 1h+2h). However melee/ranged hybrids are very difficult to build since you have to near-max out your ranged wpf for it to work and sink extra points. Well, except crossbows. Melee/melee hybrids really don't offer anything exceptionally special, so I don't see why that would be a problem.

Do you feel specialization is properly rewarded?

Well, let's put it like this. If hybridization gets any more difficult it'll be damn near impossible to do anything but specialize.

[Malaclypse]

Agree with bruce, basically what I was going to say.

[Pentecost]

>How difficult do you find it to hybridize a character?

I think with the addition of 0 slot 1hs (making hybrid archery more viable than it previously was) that the various hybrid options out there are, for the most part, in a pretty good place in terms of balance. Since fully fleshing out your skills requires you to have lower stats, you will in most cases be more versatile but less powerful than someone who has opted for higher stats and sacrificed many skill points to do so.

As far numbers go in the context of hybrid builds, I would say that having ~110 wpf in a melee weapon class or ~140 wpf in a ranged weapon class (apart from hybrid throwing, which needs far less) is enough to use the weapon class(es) in question at a very good level. While you can easily melee with 70 wpf, assuming you are not wearing heavy armor, or even 0 wpf, if you are using a 2h, you will be fighting with a noticeable handicap and will need to be better than your opponents in terms of personal skill to make up for it.

>Do you feel specialization is properly rewarded?

It is definitely rewarded. Every 50 wpf gives you both swing speed and the equivalent of another rank of power strike in damage, and it also allows you to wear heavier armor and still swing your weapon very quickly. The difference in effectiveness between a 1h/2h hybrid and a pure longsworder with only 2h was, at least for me, very noticeable when I tried both on my STF a while back.

This brings me to my next point; there are only a handful of players who can really claim to be good at everything. Most people excel in the one role that they favor, and focusing on making that role more effective will in many cases be more useful than branching out into other, unrelated areas.

Edit: clarified what I was trying to say

[[ptx]]

Making a hybrid between two melee classes seems way easier, if you got very high PS, rather than WM, because damage. Hell, my 9PS pole/1h main with 4WM feels easier to play with 1h, than my dedicated 15/21 1h alt (with 6 WM).

[Tydeus]

Compare these two:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21
    Skills to attributes: 8
    Ironflesh: 3
    Power Strike: 6
    Athletics: 7
    Weapon Master: 7
    Polearm: 165

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
    Strength: 18
    Agility: 24
    Skills to attributes: 14
    Power Strike: 6
    Athletics: 8
    Weapon Master: 3
    Polearm: 133

The 32 wpf advantage that the lower conversion build has actually amounts to 7% damage with polearms in this scenario. It's not simply a matter of skill placement either, you could max WM instead of athletics, but you would arguably be sacrificing even more. Whenever you convert more than two skill points, you sacrifice a fair bit of utility/effectiveness, but a high point conversion build is in essence, the most extreme case of specialization. This is essentially why I am hesitant in saying that specialization is being properly rewarded.

With the previous statement in mind, I find it even more difficult to argue that hybridization has any reasonable sort of difficulty to it, compared to the sacrifices you have to make. Even in the case of Archery, you merely sacrifice 10-20 wpf in your main weapon for 80-100 wpf in an alternate weapon type. As most people say PS is a requirement as well, the only sacrifice an archer makes to get PS, is that of either 1 PD or 1 athletics and 1 WM(remember how skill point conversions work). Is this really difficult? Is this really that much of a sacrifice? The only place where I find an argument worth considering, is the case of archery and even then, it's only due to the recent weight increases.

[Pentecost]

Tydeus, you are comparing a specialist build to another, very extreme specialist build rather than a hybrid build to a pure build. It was the latter comparison that I was trying to make in my post above, which, as I explained to you earlier, was unintentionally ambiguous in certain areas. I have since corrected some of those ambiguities to more accurately reflect what I was trying to say.

In any case, what I feel a more appropriate example would be for weighing the merits of a generalist hybrid vs. pure specialist would be:

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Skills to attributes: 2
    Ironflesh: 6
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 6
    Weapon Master: 6
    One Handed: 118
    Polearm: 119

compared to

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)
    Strength: 18
    Agility: 21
    Skills to attributes: 8
    Ironflesh: 3
    Power Strike: 6
    Athletics: 7
    Weapon Master: 7
    Polearm: 165

The generalist build is a lower level variation of the build I use on my main, and one that I've personally tried on an STF. It gives you good protection against ranged fire, cavalry, and teamhits--adaptability in other words--in exchange for average damage, speed, and swing speed. Basically, it has the ability to respond to many different situations but not the ability to respond outstandingly. In spite of this, it is a very excellent build. The fact that it does not have any major weaknesses is its greatest strength.

The specialist build, on the other hand, is very powerful for a level 30 build. The extra ~50 weapon proficiency basically translates to another level of power strike over the generalist build, on top of a gain in swing speed that is further augmented by the additional rank in athletics over the generalist build. For someone who favors flank attacks and usually goes for big plays, it is undoubtedly the better build. The benefits of investing in a hybrid option like riding, shield, or 1h do not outweigh the drawback of taking away stats and skills from the primary role of the hypothetical hero that would choose to specialize in this way.

It doesn't seem to me like there's a lack of parity in terms of effectiveness here. Both hybrids and pure builds are equally viable, despite focusing on different things.

[Tydeus]

Yes, I do believe melee/melee hybrids are more comparable to specialized melee builds. What I don't believe is 'balanced', would be hybriding ranged with melee builds. Particularly crossbow and throwing hybrids with melee. Again, it's a mere 1 ps or 1 athletics and 1 wm for a fully effective melee and ranged build. Yes, you will be disadvantaged if you try to duel a dedicated melee build but that's a rather narrow point of view to look at balance from.

[Tomas]

The 32 wpf advantage that the lower conversion build has actually amounts to 7% damage with polearms in this scenario.

According to http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/ 32 wpf should only give around 4.5% extra damage not 7%.

The way I see it is this

7WM gives around 50 extra specialised wpf.  This amounts to 1PS. 

So if given the choice between 7 skill points in WM or 3 Str and 1 PS I will always go for the PS since that gives 3 extra HP and 0.6 more base damage as well.
And if I only have 6 or less skill points to spend then PS, Ath, IF and Shield are my priorities, not WM.
WM is just the thing i sink left over points in to.

Obviously hybridding is different

[Tydeus]

According to http://forum.meleegaming.com/beginner%27s-help-and-guides/game-mechanic-megathread!/ 32 wpf should only give around 4.5% extra damage not 7%.

The way I see it is this

7WM gives around 50 extra specialised wpf.  This amounts to 1PS. 

http://forum.meleegaming.com/general-discussion/wpf-and-damage/msg588595/

Edit for clarification: It's multiplicative, not additive.

[bruce]

Yes, I do believe melee/melee hybrids are more comparable to specialized melee builds. What I don't believe is 'balanced', would be hybriding ranged with melee builds. Particularly crossbow and throwing hybrids with melee. Again, it's a mere 1 ps or 1 athletics and 1 wm for a fully effective melee and ranged build. Yes, you will be disadvantaged if you try to duel a dedicated melee build but that's a rather narrow point of view to look at balance from.

Melee/melee hybrids cannot possibly be a balance problem.

As for hybrid ranged with melee, they are already nerfed a lot due to slots - so an, eg. crossbowman will not only have less wpf (which is not so debilitating) but will be stuck using a 1 slot weapon if he uses one stack of bolts. Throwing hybrids are very rare these days again because of both slots, needing points in PT and throwing wpf and you must have light armour on top.

It's funny - now people rage to hell about mounted crossbowmen, and when they predictably get nerfed they will rage about STF HAs trolling, mostly because infantry in 90% of the cases doesn't carry any ranged of any sort anymore because hybridization is so difficult to pull off effectively. Horses can just ride around them freely, since there's much less danger in doing so in modern crpg.

Melee server failed, remember?

[CrazyCracka420]

I'm always a 1h/shield/polearm/cavalry hybrid, so I put a lot of points into shield and riding and WM that otherwise would go into IF or converting skills to attributes.

When I have 6 WM at level 30, I typically go 118 polearm, and 119 1h.   If I was to do a straight up 1h/shield character, I would probably still max WM to get the most speed (and little bit more damage) out of my swings.  But I think I'm in the minority, I think most people in that situation would probably only put 2 or 3 into WM and say "120ish" WPF is good enough (which it really is for 1h).  But I still would rather have an offensive skill gain (WPF) than a defensive one (IF), my theory being, kill the other guy before he can hit you.

This is what my infantry 1h/shield build would look like:
Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

    Strength: 24
    Agility: 15
    Hit points: 59

    Converted: 8

    Power Strike: 8
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 5
    Weapon Master: 5

    One Handed: 148

But if I were to drop down to 3 WM I would still have 132 WPF, which seems good (but not nearly as good as being almost at 150)

[Dach]

Let's see, comparison between pure 2h and 2h/thrower at lvl 30.

2h

21/18

70hp

7 IF
7 PS
6 Ath
3 WM

130wpf in 2h

Keep in mind the throwing hybrid is the easiest to make...

2h/thrower

18/18

63hp

5 IF
6 PS
6 Ath
6 PT
6 WM

126 wpf 2h
110 wpf throwing

Difference... the pure build get 7 hp and 1 PS more.

Personnaly find the hybrid more appealing here.

Second one being the crossbowmen, they get 6 skill more so can do nearly the same build as the 2h but get fuck by the slot and will probably use more than 110wpf in crossbow. (thought in their case it's not necessary.)

18/21

59hp

3 IF
6 PS
7 Ath
7 WM

129 wpf 2h
122 wpf crossbow

Archer get fuck by the weight, stupid upkeep, cannot use too much armor and need more than 110 wpf to be accurate...

18/18

63hp

5 IF
6 PS
6 Ath
6 PD
6 WM

86 wpf 2h
140 wpf archery

Overall I find that hybrid are ok right now, maybe except the archer (main problem being the fucking weight...)

Just want the extreme STR that take 0 WM to weaken a bit.

[Molly]

I am somewhat confused here tbh. Maybe you could elaborate which goal are you trying to achieve by re-working the WPF?
You wanna make hybrids better? Are you trying to make agility oriented builds more viable compared to strength oriented or balanced builds?

As a new member of the Ninjas I am using a rather rare seen agility build with 15/24 using 5PS, 5PT, 8ATH and 5WM with rather light armor on top. So I represent one of the more extreme builds that are around. Beside the fact that this build is very squishy, I enjoy playing it a lot.

Unfortunately, there is very little gain from all the speed and agility even compared to the standard 18/18. Everyone around me has a way higher rate of survival. Arbalests one-shoot me, so do most melee hits and even a horse crossbow nowadays takes easily 70% of my health with one hit.

The tradeoff between agility and strength is way more in favour of the strength guy because it is coupled with health. There is no good reason - except the personal fun factor - to go agility and WM. That is something that should be addressed. And I hope that this is the priority to this WPF re-working.

One of the most viable shielder builds I ever tried was 24/15 w/o any WPF, just using the WPF gain on the level up. Those builds shouldn't even be possible imo.


Just my 2 cents. Maybe not a proper reply to the topic but those are my thoughts on the matter.