Community Inquiry/Discussion - WPF Formula Related

[Wrangham]

How difficult do you find it to hybridize a character?

I don't understand this question.

Do you feel specialization is properly rewarded?

Yes. I hybridize only because it keeps the game interesting for me. I play one character instead of alting several specialized characters because my character is my avatar!

I did one gen as 36/3 2h (my only truly non-hybrid gen) and it was supremely powerful. There are soft barriers to hybridization like the inability to change weapons without getting hit and even the extra ~1.5 kg of a 1h sword is significant. I don't have the WaltF4 data at my fingertips but I believe 1 ATH is roughly cancelled out by ~6 kg of carried weight.

[Konrax]

I think of all the weapon classes that require WPF 1h needs it the most because of the speed penalty of the shields.

[bruce]

Well - if people not taking points in weapon mastery is what bothers you that can be indeed reworked a bit (eg. less gain from leveling, more from WM).

However, melee/melee hybrids shouldn't be nerfed. For starters, while they have more versatility, they are a bit more encumbered by weight for one, have to pay more upkeep and essentially they can only use one melee weapon at a time and either weapon they use they are less effective then pure builds.

For what? 1h + polearm hybrids have the ability to stop cavalry, if they have the time to switch to hoplite mode. So, fine. We can remove the hoplite class and add shield+spear (without a onehander, it's wrong to call it "hoplite" because it's not anymore). You just killed some of the remaining diversity in the mod for... what, exactly?

There are no more platearchers of old with great mauls smashing everyone's heads in. Stop beating the dead horse.

[Tydeus]

I can't believe I didn't make it clear enough in my first post.

This is simply a thread to gain opinions. Any rework that gets done will affect nearly every single character in crpg. A few will be affected negatively, others positively, with varying degrees of intensity. No one is going to nerf melee/melee hybrids. No one wants to see melee/throwing hybrids vanish.

Edit: The poll was put up simply because I wanted to know how many people got WM on 1h characters, either because they hybrid 1h with something, or because they don't feel the base 111 is enough. Now at least I know that far fewer players will likely be affected negatively than what I had originally thought.

[San]

I feel 1h/polearm is a bit too good, especially if you throw riding into the mix, compared to 1h/2h and polearm/2h. I can't think of many ways to make the latter more appealing without introducing extra secondary modes or something. Compared to pure builds, even 1h/polearm doesn't look as good in some cases, although it is comparable.

I don't feel specialization in agility gets much better after 8ath. Speed is pretty relative, and even at 6 ath, you'll be pretty fast compared to your opponent. When you're already faster, being marginally more faster isn't much when you can supplement your speed with power and survivability, making a 18/24 build or 21/21 instead of 12/30 and 15/27.

[bruce]

I have a 1h/2h/polearm hybrid, since longsword does all three when used with shield 

Not that it's that useful, but it's interesting.

[dontgothere]

No one wants to see melee/throwing hybrids vanish...

tydeus. devs. throwing.

good luck great job

[bruce]

I would not mind WPF from levels going away and WPF being only obtainable through WM, but it should be balanced somewhere along then lines where 5 or 6 WM characters at 30 have the same WPF as now, imo. Agility has its bonuses; of course, you're squishy on one hand but even in armour you're far more mobile, and can both retreat and advance at will.

My 21/15 character feels often far too slow to follow infantry combat fully, in mail (with a light shield, too). That said - I needed to opt for str due to fact the longsword is quite weak from horseback without at least 7 PS (using 1h wpf and requiring split wpf when used with shield doesn't help either).

[Malaclypse]

tydeus. devs. throwing.

good luck great job

Throwing is awesome. There's a different reason to choose any different weapon. Heavy throwing axes and throwing lances are beast (HTA now has the highest cut damage in the entire game outside of Persian Battle Axe) but limited and therefore best used as hybrid tools, the regular Throwing Axes and Franciscas are now more worthwhile for a pure thrower due to the HTA slot change, all the spear type weapons are rad and fun (though javs could probably use a buff), Darts, War Darts, Stones, Daggers are all extremely viable as pure or hybrid builds and very fun as well. Throwing star class throwing and Hammers could use buffs.

[Phantasmal]

As a melee/crossbow build I find it extremely easy to hybrid but hard to become a jack-of-all-trades.

The standard crossbow build at 30 is 15/24 meaning I get 5 PS and have about 85 1H proficiency with the rest in crossbow. The only downside to such a build is that I am restricted to wearing medium armor (to maintain both proficiencies at acceptable levels) and, on top of this, I have relatively low HP (only 50 HP) meaning I get one shot by arbalests and throwing lances and 2-3 shot by everything else. But my greatest issue is that I am only effective in 1v1 scenarios when it comes to melee. If I were to drop my arbalest for a round and enter the zerg horde with everyone else, my own team would probably destroy me even in heavy plate. Another point is that, even though I have 5 PS, I am uneffective against people in heavy armor when it comes to melee. Even with a MW Italian Falchion (37 cut) I still do minor damage to plate armors and they take about 6-7 hits to take down (if I am lucky). Because of my low PS and low 1H prof, my weapon choices are extremely limited to fast, high cut/pierce weapons. I have learned to adapt to fighting heavy plate by scraping them off to teammates and learning to pick my fights (aka kiting).

I hope this is what you were looking for.

[Zaren]

1.How difficult do you find it to hybridize a character?

2.Do you feel specialization is properly rewarded?

1.Depends-Archer/2h is hard if u wana hit hard/hit anything with your bow(if you go agi vs strength archer). If I go agi archer hybrid I hit ridiculously low damage to the point where its more beneficial to carry an xbow and a langes than a light bow and any normal 2h. Most other hybrids are ok....hoplite, 2h xbow, anything with throwing.....those are all fine.
2.Yes

[dontgothere]

Throwing is awesome. There's a different reason to choose any different weapon. Heavy throwing axes and throwing lances are beast (HTA now has the highest cut damage in the entire game outside of Persian Battle Axe) but limited and therefore best used as hybrid tools, the regular Throwing Axes and Franciscas are now more worthwhile for a pure thrower due to the HTA slot change, all the spear type weapons are rad and fun (though javs could probably use a buff), Darts, War Darts, Stones, Daggers are all extremely viable as pure or hybrid builds and very fun as well. Throwing star class throwing and Hammers could use buffs.

thanks for filling me in when it comes to throwing i'm clueless

[Malaclypse]

thanks for filling me in when it comes to throwing i'm clueless

No, just took the changes too hard or something, because I don't know why anyone would think ill of throwing in it's current state.

[dontgothere]

well this isnt a throwing thread so my posts stop here, but if you want to get an idea of "why anyone would think ill of it" why don't you go to a throwing thread and read what 9/10ths of all the posting players interested in the problem have to say. not that it matters if you do or don't, since the devs are obviously intent on breaking it for good

[Tydeus]

15/21 STF
5PS
5PD
5IF
7WM
7Athletics(yes, athletics)
150 wpf archery
87 wpf melee

I even went as far as to play in full plate: Blue Churburg, Plate Gauntlets, Cased Greaves, Faceplate. I used 2 stacks of bodkins, a horn bow and a mace for weapons.

For the first hour, hour and a half I had a 3:1 K:D ratio, at which point, nearly the entire opposing team started focusing me. I was consistently topping the scoreboard. For the first hour and a half or so, I also had gained 4K gold, that's with 67K gold in equipment costs. About 50% of my kills were melee, but as a hybrid, isn't that basically how it should be(especially with 59 kg in weight)? Sure, I'm one of the best and longest playing players on na, so of course I'd be doing good. But the way I see it, the facts back up the statement that you don't lose much effectiveness for hybridization, as well as my empirical tests.

This isn't my first time hybriding melee with ranged either, most of my builds have been hybrids. This isn't anything new, this is simply how skill conversions work. Now what does this mean, does it mean I have it out for hybrids? Does it mean I want to nerf hybrid characters particularly with x or y builds? No. But, I can't help from thinking that wpf needs to scale better for stacking wpf than it does currently in comparison to split wpf.

Also, current quiver weight is dumb.