Author Topic: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)  (Read 4966 times)

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Offline Ronin

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2013, 12:23:45 pm »
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Offline moorane

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2013, 12:39:49 pm »
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Best solution: Nerf cav and archery both ;P.

Offline Tennenoth

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2013, 12:42:27 pm »
+10
The more threads like this that pop up, and the more replies I read, the more I play the class in question and the less I actually kite and shoot the more I feel it is the mentality of the player base that is the "problem".

The tools are there, people just ignore them, it is completely viable to have a two slot bow, one stack of arrows and a decent melee weapon, be accurate and have a reasonable defence when fighting close quarters. People just don't want to do that, they would prefer to run and shoot because they have the advantage there, and to be honest, I don't blame them.

I suppose it's human nature to want to have an advantage over others, to better yourself and that's why archers prefer to run even though you do have the capabilities to stand and fight, that's why two stacks of arrows and a hammer are usually taken, there are the options available but people won't use them because that's not their "ideal", they want an absolute advantage.
Sure, changing the mechanics will help to force out bad habits, but if it is still possible, then great, still going to do it, the only absolute block I can see is to stop archers from moving before and after shooting but that's just stupid.

Archers want to be out of harms way, they can damage there and they avoid it too, melee want to be up close and personal, they can damage there and for the most part, generally don't have too much of a chance to avoid it, hence why the general consensus is to wear heavier armour, so that they can avoid as much damage as possible. Similarly cavalry have the best chance to do damage to enemies who are unaware of them, they have the lowest chance to take damage when the enemy have their attention elsewhere, that's why they back-stab, an advantage.
I know I'm just saying what has been said before, but no one, unless they want a challenge, will ever want to be at a disadvantage, these continual nerfs just make people have to cover as many of their disadvantages as possible by compensating different things until they're just a blob. I have the absolute advantage of range, the advantage of being quick, and I cover my losses in melee by sacrificing some of that superiourity in range for melee skill to cover my disadvantage because I know I will be caught eventually, always have a contingency but that is the way I think, I've never really been an all or nothing person, calculated I suppose. I focus on being most effective by being versatile because I am not good at avoiding situations that put me at a disadvantage. The people that I see that get complained about are the ones who can utilise their advantage incredibly well, they're able to know when to turn tail and are able to kite someone to oblivion and when that fails, then that's basically all they have because they have not invested to cover that, since they rarely need it.

For me, the proposed solution in the opening post will merely cause me to miss more shots or be forced to hide like a crossbowman to shoot, that'd just break the flow of the game, another nerf without accomplishing anything, archers will still run away, they still have more than enough arrows to shoot in your general direction and will rather take the chance of running and shooting than stand and fight you in melee where they are at a disadvantage. Even if they can't aim accurately, they can still hurt you while you can hurt them and regardless, this would happen less often because archers would often become "satellites" around the battlefield, they would hang out at the edges, away from the main bulk of infantry, and shoot from there, if anyone even glanced in their direction, they would put as much distance between that person as possible as quickly as possible, they would then wait out that "heart rate stabilisation" period before continuing on their merry way.

I guess some of what I am saying in the latter part of this post is screaming "then give archers melee capabilities", but as I have said, that means sacrificing some of their ranged power, it is already possible to make a decent level 30 character in both ranged and melee without heirloomed equipment with minimal effort, on top of this you do not want to have ranged players running around as strong as melee players do you?

You can only coax a section of people into covering their losses by enticing them with the possibility to do so, then you can move to trying to stop the remainder by being less persuasive and more forceful, but they will resist until you completely close it down, which will just break many aspects of the game.

I do apologise for this long and frankly rambling display of personal opinions, views and lack of understanding for human psychology and game balance but I like to share my views and appreciate feedback for those who bother to read my essays! Most of what I say is very basic and I do feel like a lot of what I have said is "preaching to the choir" as I am sure that what I have said has been stated a thousand and one times but I can't help myself.

I already regret the decision to press "post".  :lol:
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Offline Molly

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2013, 12:57:29 pm »
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You know why people rarely complain about archers like Tenne, Bagge or ROBINHOOD?

It's rather simple really - you rarely see those guys run away. And that's all the melee people are asking for... if you get caught, don't run but stand your ground and (most likely) die.
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Offline Gurnisson

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2013, 01:02:32 pm »
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You know why people rarely complain about archers like Tenne, Bagge or ROBINHOOD?

It's rather simple really - you rarely see those guys run away. And that's all the melee people are asking for... if you get caught, don't run but stand your ground and (most likely) die.

Robinhood, really? :lol:

While Tenne and Bagge rarely kited, Robinhood did nothing but kite!
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Offline Prpavi

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2013, 01:03:40 pm »
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reply to the OP: No

why? beacuse archers kiting will still continue and nowdays if the run from you and turn around the still have  massive crosshair but can still somehow shoot you because youre so close. so i dont see how your propos friton would stop kiting.

cav has been severely nerfed and the spikes and ammount of archers and xbowers plus pikers and hoplites makes a cav job more difficult than ever.

archers never did the "shoot and relocate fast"  part you mentioned and that wasnt their real strength irl only in games like this one. tbh if you were forced to play the arcer as it was done irl nobody would play it for sure :3

my main beef with archer is the ammout, low dmg non loomed ones do, high dmg fully loomed high lvl ones do and stun which is too strong.
And now he can't play because of "common sense" and he doesn't understand how this common sense works
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Offline Molly

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #96 on: March 25, 2013, 01:06:41 pm »
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Robinhood, really? :lol:

While Tenne and Bagge rarely kited, Robinhood did nothing but kite!
Most of the time I see him running with the horde, hiding behind some shielder or something. Not really kiting if you actually run with the mob...
Maybe before, dunno, it's not that I am stalking him or anything :wink:
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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #97 on: March 25, 2013, 01:16:33 pm »
+2
Most of the time I see him running with the horde, hiding behind some shielder or something. Not really kiting if you actually run with the mob...
Maybe before, dunno, it's not that I am stalking him or anything :wink:

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Offline Tindel

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #98 on: March 25, 2013, 01:54:07 pm »
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I thought your post was well written and spot on Tenne.

Its harder from the other side though, how does a infantry player approach it?
Getting a ranged weapon? That kinda means everyone should be ranged in the end.

Get a shield? The usual comment you get.....

Works if you are 1h and for a couple of the polearms, 2handers are screwed.
I play 1h but id much rather block manually than just having autoblock from a shield.

So its either become ranged hybrid or sacrificing half of the melee combat system.   

« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:01:23 pm by Tindel »

Offline Molly

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #99 on: March 25, 2013, 02:56:28 pm »
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I thought your post was well written and spot on Tenne.

Its harder from the other side though, how does a infantry player approach it?
Getting a ranged weapon? That kinda means everyone should be ranged in the end.

Get a shield? The usual comment you get.....

Works if you are 1h and for a couple of the polearms, 2handers are screwed.
I play 1h but id much rather block manually than just having autoblock from a shield.

So its either become ranged hybrid or sacrificing half of the melee combat system.   
You can put a shield on your back, you know... I see a lot of 2h do that: Approaching with shield in their hand and 2h lolstabweapon on their back and switching when close enough to engage. They adapted... just saying.
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Offline Tennenoth

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #100 on: March 25, 2013, 02:59:17 pm »
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I thought your post was well written and spot on Tenne.

Its harder from the other side though, how does a infantry player approach it?
Getting a ranged weapon? That kinda means everyone should be ranged in the end.

Get a shield? The usual comment you get.....

Works if you are 1h and for a couple of the polearms, 2handers are screwed.
I play 1h but id much rather block manually than just having autoblock from a shield.

So its either become ranged hybrid or sacrificing half of the melee combat system.   

I've never been much of a fan of the "get a shield" argument myself since if I continue on my train of thought through my last post, it is just lessening a disadvantage, it's not a solid counter, it does not give you any more offensive capabilities than running around with your fists, it just means you have a higher chance to avoid getting shot. It helps with getting closer, and a lot of two handers these days run around with a shield, but the low skill means that you can easily just aim for their legs, again, it's just dampening your disadvantages as opposed to negating them.

From the other side of the coin, I do play other classes, Biscuits mainly as a polearmer/pikeman with my "hidden" alt as a two hander and I can see the problem. One is quick, which means that I don't have to faff around chasing archers because I know I can outrun them, the other is just a character I like to fight as an "average Joe". I can see where people come from that it is annoying, you can't really counter it, but I do not chase archers unless I am forced to, I will sacrifice myself if it means keeping the heat on an archer, allowing my allies to be freed up to contend with something else, but at the end of the day, chances are, I get gunned down. That's fair enough, I put myself in that situation and I knew the likely outcome, I don't get angry because there are only so many of the variables that I can control.

Anyway I don't believe sacrifices need to be made in any area, we've tried negative reinforcement, shall we try positive reinforcement? Give something to the archers who fight in melee, I don't mean any buffs or similar, I mean some sort of small pat on the back. It wouldn't be too difficult, and also there could be something for everyone to add in, something to drag people out of their comfort zones really.
I'm not sure, but I've always trained my dogs to do things through telling them they're good when they do something I want them to do, and tell them off when they have done something bad. Encourage them to do things that you want them to do, discourage the other things, we've done the discouraging, it worked to an extent but it's just breaking things.

I have little idea what type of "reward" could be implemented for dragging classes out of their comfort zones to be honest, maybe a slight experience or gold bonus if a primarily archer character kills off someone in melee, for staying near the group or something like that, and similarly for the melee players, beating the odds or for fighting 2 vs 1.
The only kick in the face for all of this is that someone has to work out what would be good for each class, how to and then actually implementing the damned things, testing them, tweaking them and a general increase in workload.

I'm quite happy to discuss ways of doing this but I just can't see a mechanics change that can be translated as a nerf for a class can help things progress, we've moved forward so far from the early days and we're starting to double back on ourselves.

You know why people rarely complain about archers like Tenne, Bagge or ROBINHOOD?

It's rather simple really - you rarely see those guys run away. And that's all the melee people are asking for... if you get caught, don't run but stand your ground and (most likely) die.

They don't complain about me because I am not a good archer! :wink:

I shall make this thread into one large essay. I'll move onto bird psychology next now that I have done human and dog!  :lol:
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Offline Joker86

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #101 on: March 25, 2013, 03:18:15 pm »
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Well that is a nice way of excusing them for their behavior, but it doesn't fit observed facts.

Fact: Teams at end round tonight was 1 HX on one side, several melee with spears/2handers, etc and a foot archer and foot xbow. Did the melee stand guard over the xbow while it was reloading to shoot the HX down? Where they perhaps guarding the archer so he didn't get bumped to death? Oh hell no, they were running around in circles 50 feet away from their ranged trying to chase the HX while on foot! This went on for at least 2 minutes, even after the xbow was asking for them to protect him so he could reload and shoot the bastard's horse down. All the while the HX kept shooting and bumping the archer and xbow.

Sound like fun? No, of course it wasn't. But rather than a discussion of how the melee needed to use actual teamplay and tactics, the discussion turned to how the HX should be nerfed  :rolleyes:

The more threads like this that pop up, and the more replies I read, the more I play the class in question and the less I actually kite and shoot the more I feel it is the mentality of the player base that is the "problem".

The tools are there, people just ignore them, it is completely viable to have a two slot bow, one stack of arrows and a decent melee weapon, be accurate and have a reasonable defence when fighting close quarters. People just don't want to do that, they would prefer to run and shoot because they have the advantage there, and to be honest, I don't blame them.

I noticed that, too. But when I wrote a topic about those matters (here) people more or less flamed me. I guess you can't fix the people.




So you have to find a way to force them to change their behavior.  :twisted:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Miwiw

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #102 on: March 25, 2013, 03:28:07 pm »
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I try to defend friendly ranged whenever I can with my 2H and polearm alts. However most archers move way too much to be defended effectively. 2H lolstab is long, but it can't cover a archer standing even 3m away. You have to be standing right next to him and if the archer or archers move just a few meters away from you while you are not watching, enemy cav will seize the occasion and oneshoot the archer. I wish archers would consider this when they notice they have cover and try to stay still as much as possible even if it makes them an easier target for enemy ranged.

That said, it's really really rare to see anyone covering anyone on EU1 which is what makes cav so damn easy. If you have a long ass weapon, and your team is steamrolling the enemy. Just stand back and watch out for cav (or ninjas). Sure you won't get points nor kills, but imo it's still fun. Cavalry doesn't expect anyone to do that ;)

That's quite nice of you and deserves a +1.
However an important problem... the Archer needs a lot of space to shoot his arrows. He needs space to move to the sides, avoiding enemy archer shots, moving to pick new targets, get a bit closer or and most important the view is blocked if another person is next to the Archer.
You will like never see Archers standing in a line because the chance one of them gets hit by enemy ranged is quite high if they are just crowding one spot. Movement is important, more important than a melee supporting the Archer by looking for enemy cav.

Good input, Tenne. Even now 2 stacks of arrows are possible as there are many nice 1h weapons being 0 slot. A simple "Short Sword" is strong enough. It can block like any other 1h sword (got a similar weight to most 1h weapons), about 85 range is enough most times and its dmg is neither bad if you're quick enough, got enough PS or a teammate next to you.

Btw Tindel, you choose to be a 1h without shield. You gotta live with it then. ;)
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Offline Tindel

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #103 on: March 25, 2013, 03:58:39 pm »
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Yeah if you are not a ranged character you should obviously carry a shield.
If you dont carry a shield means you want to get shot! You are practically asking for it.

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Offline Kafein

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Re: By nerfing archery you are breaking the game (+ solution for kiting)
« Reply #104 on: March 25, 2013, 04:18:35 pm »
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Yeah if you are not a ranged character you should obviously carry a shield.
If you dont carry a shield means you want to get shot! You are practically asking for it.

I see it now! I see the light!

Carrying a shield makes no significant difference though. Ranged players gifted with a brain will wait until you are forced to turn your back/side on them. Also you are forced to block and be pinned down. Blocking projectiles after they are shot only works with throwing.