Author Topic: Tha Sword a tha North  (Read 1920 times)

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Offline Penitent

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+ some unloomed armor)
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2013, 04:29:02 pm »
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Offline Ronin

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+ some unloomed armor)
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2013, 01:01:38 pm »
+1
Let's have an intellectual conversation
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Penitent

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+ some unloomed armor)
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2013, 02:44:28 pm »
+1
Hello!

I don't get many visitors.  What would you like to talk about?
One obvious topic is the Steel Pick I'm selling...it's actually my opinion that it is the best weapon in the game, for various reasons that I could get in to.

I'm open to any topic though!

Offline Ronin

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2013, 03:11:12 pm »
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Oh. Discussing about steel pick doesn't require much intellectual analysis, but I have no other topic in mind now. So why not :P

As a onehander myself I tend to disagree. Steel pick can be one of the best, but it's rather short. Sometimes, more reach means more active participation in battle. So I prefer swords that have more than 85+ length. Those that are longer than 100+ can be nice too, but I think the length between 90-100 is optimum. Langes messer, niuweidao, grosse messer are quite nice swords on foot. Steel pick is more of a specialist weapon.

Personally I don't understand why people produce lots of steel picks for strategus battles. I'd mostly likely spend my money on the most economic/useful sword. So I can spend my money on bec de corbins, mauls, bar maces, twohanded axes and some hoplite spears instead. Also more long onehanders for cavalry too.

The good thing with steel pick is, you can play like kinngrimm. With a 15/30 build or so. It is probably very fast and is doing very good damage combined with speed bonus.
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Penitent

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2013, 03:44:43 pm »
+1
Oh, yes, I can see your point.  People have different play styles and different weapons may compliment those play styles better than others.  I still stand by my claim though.

You are right in stating the steel pick does have one disadvantage, and that is length.  I'll discuss this disadvantage more in a bit.  However, I think its advantages far outweigh this disadvantage.  When I look at a weapon and how good it is, I of course consider its length, speed, and damage.  Some weapons also have special characteristics (like shield breaker) but it is usually these three that are most important.  The pick does the more damage than any other 1h weapon.  It is the king in that department.  Also, in terms of speed, it is among the fastest.  It also has a certain "x factor" going for it.  Because of its size, shape, and speed, it can be hard to see and therefore hard to block.  All of these aspects taken together DO make it a specialist weapon...its perfect for those that want to specialize in killing.

It is short, but it is vicious, lethal, and merciless.  I like 1h swords too, especially the faster swords (Italian and Nordic War sword).  They can be quite effective weapons and the length allows you to attack more often and earlier, depending on your style.  The damage though, compared to the steel pick, is lacking.  Nothing drops your enemy as fast as a loomed +3 deadly steel pick in terms of 1h weapons.

However, my claim is not that the steel pick is the best 1h weapon...but that it is the best weapon in the game.  This is naturally because the best weapon in the game would be a weapon that leaves one hand free for a shield.  A shield is a huge advantage, so any weapon that does not allow this has a strike counted against it.  Shields block ranged attacks and allow you to face multiple opponents with relative ease.  They also help immensely when you are using a shorter weapon.  Using a shorter weapon means that your enemy will be able to strike you before you can strike them.  Having a sturdy shield effectively negates this advantage.  You are able to march up to an enemy with immunity, no matter how many times they feint or spam.  In addition, the disadvantage of shortness can be turned in to an advantage if you are fighting in a closed space or when you face-hug you opponent who is not used to fighting so close.  The closeness can mean your attacks are partially masked by their player model and harder to block.  It can also mean that their longer weapon (a long 2h or pole) is not as effective.  So, what I mean is, the one disadvantage of the pick (short length) can in some instances effectively take advantage of your opponents weaknesses.

For strat battles, I agree that the steel pick is not the best except perhaps in sieges.  The "shield wall" environment of strat battles does is not the best place for an extra short weapon.  There are some weapons that are better than the steel pick in some areas of the game....but when considering which weapon is the best, fastest, most deadly weapon in the greatest variety of situations, I think the steel pick takes the prize!

Offline Ronin

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2013, 11:30:54 pm »
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Ooo the discussion is about to get heated, because I have counter arguments against your argument; "steel pick is the best weapon" :)

I suppose I tend to agree with you on many aspects. Steel pick is one of the most badass weapons out there. No armor is heavy enough to stop steel pick, and it is a short-fast weapon; making it near to perfect for very close quarters.

The one problem with this best weapon argument is, you seem to be focusing only on one aspect of the game; infantry fights. Basically, you'd prefer an arabian straight sword over a steel pick if you are versus cavalry. Because the short length of the weapon will make you vulnerable to bump+slashes or lance+bumps. Besides, if we think the scenario other way around. It would be a pretty bad cavalry weapon.

Secondly, there are other piercing weapons which are much more longer and much more versatile. I'm talking about spears. Basically ashwood pike has 30 pierce. Although it's damage is lowered when used with a shield, it is still viable considering it has has at last x4 better reach, which might mean more participation in teamfights. And it can stop horses too. I know they are very different type of weapons, but anything you use to make your enemies can be comparable to a point. I'm not saying spears are overall better than steel pick. They both have their uses somehow.

As for the strategus sieges, you are probably right. It's just that I am not a fan of short weapons in sieges. I feel more comfortable better with longer weapons. The extra range is definetely needed when defending/assaulting walls from the outside with ladders. Which makes steel pick not that much of a great weapon in strategus battles in my opinion. It's not lower in usefulness. It's just not really economical. I'd prefer my infantry to take axes, mauls and spears, to destroy enemy shields and ladders.

As for the deadliest weapon, it indeed has the best damage potential. But you are not taking knockdowns into account. Maces and hammers have a knockdown chance, which counts as one more hit damage generally. So it is not the deadliest. Steel pick is rather the valid choice here. You might not get knockdowns with maces in many cases. Steel pick makes it sure you do good damage all the time. It is also faster than maces of course.
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Penitent

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2013, 02:55:19 pm »
+1
Ah yes, you have valid points as well.  I suppose my argument of the steel pick being the best is a bit focused on infantry.  I guess the crux of my position is that it is the best all-around weapon because infantry fights are the most common, but you are right in saying that is falls "short" if you are facing an enemy on horseback.  The pick might as well be a stick in that case.  Although, I'll have you know I have used the pick to good effect while I'm on a horse.  You have to get reeeeally close to the enemy to hit them, but it almost guarantees a hit to the head and they always get bumped even if you miss!

That does bring up one other advantage of the steel pick though...its only 1 slot!  That means you can take a backup weapon (like a sword, or a polearm) to fend off cav.

Anyways, in the end, I'd still say if I could only use one weapon for the rest of my CRPG career, it would be the steel pick.  Enough about me though!  Do you have a favorite weapon, or a weapon you'd choose if you could only choose one?  Perhaps we can discuss its virtues and vices.

Offline Ronin

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2013, 03:08:53 pm »
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I'm a man of a spear and shield guy (apart from being a 2handermaster, but I just got bored of it). As I have explained it in my hoplite guide, it can even feel like cheating. An ashwood pike and a shield basically gives you so many adventages. It has good damage, it has good reach, it has piercing damage, it is long weapon and a shield together, you have advantage against every class as long as you are not fighting alone. It has it's many other disadvantages too though. But I like to draw my power from versatility and I am a teamwork kind of guy.

In the last strategus battle, after our horses are all out I tried defending a good archer. I basically protected him from arrows with my shields, and kept the enemy cavalry away. Only when an infantry was coming close, we both retreated a little to our main group. I mean, what can I ask more? It felt like using a chariot. One is driving the mount, the other is shooting. In our case; one is keeping the other safe, the other guy is shooting without being concerned of his safety.

Spear and a shield is also very goddamn useful in massed up infantry fights. You can simply support your teammates. The high range both allows you to keep your distance and participate much more. Even if you just make the enemy scratch a bit, as long as it stops the guy for a second it can result of his death.
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Penitent

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2013, 05:40:30 pm »
+1
Ah yes...what you describe sounds very fun!  I think that might give us a new criteria for what is the "best" weapon.  Since this is a game, we should be trying to find out which weapon is "most fun!"

I just read most of your guide, and I have to say hoplite does sound pretty awesome.  Your guide is also well written.  You state there that English is not your first language, but I must commend you on your excellent writing ability.  I have a degree in English and I will gladly admit that you write more eloquently and with better grammar than the average English speaker. :)

I may have to try out something like this, but I'm thinking more of a hybrid build.  I always try to go for some kind of hybrid because I get bored with straight builds.  Maybe you'll allow me to pick your brain for a moment. :)

In your expert hoplite opinion, what do you think of this cav-hoplite hybrid? 

Lv 30

    Strength: 18
    Agility: 18
    Hit points: 55

    Skills to attributes: 2

    Ironflesh: 0
    Power Strike: 6
    Shield: 5
    Athletics: 6
    Riding: 6
    Horse Archery: 0
    Power Draw: 0
    Power Throw: 0
    Weapon Master: 6

    One Handed: 115
    Polearm: 125


This does not include any IF, so I'm not sure if you find that important for a hoplite.  Let me know what you think!

Offline Ronin

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Re: Deadly Steel Pick (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2013, 07:52:26 pm »
0
All I can say is, you posted the build I am using as my main at the moment. :)

I'd drop the shield to 4 and weapon master to 4 or 5 to get some ironflesh though. The distribution between pole and one hand is up to you, depending on which one you will use more. The one you posted seems pretty reasonable. You can drop them a tiny bit, since ironflesh could have been more useful than some proficiency.

And thanks for your comment on my writing skills. I try to improve my english as much as I can. The guide is a bit old by the way. I have improved my language skills since then :P


Ok enough of me now. Now it's your turn. Suggest me an interesting playstyle and I will try it with my STF character.
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D

Offline Penitent

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Re: MW Miaodao (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2013, 01:01:24 pm »
0
Hmmm, let me think on this a bit.  I've got a crazy weekend coming up, and I'll get back to you. :)

Offline Penitent

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Re: MW Bastard Sword (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2013, 06:05:22 am »
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I have a hard time thinking of a good "interesting" play style, because I usually play boring old 18/18 one-hand shielder - Cav hybrid builds. :)

However, there one STF character that I did that was quite fun.  It was a STR based polearm build.  I believe it was 27/12 using a Ranseur, Spetum, or Corseque.  I'm sure its a very similar playstyle to a hoplite, which you are used to.  There is a significant different though...you would be forgoing the use of a shield for increased range, damage, and/or speed.  It's kind of like playing a pike-man build, but these weapons do significantly more damage and its quite fun. 

Well, it's a suggestion anyways!

Offline Penitent

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Re: MW Bastard Sword (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2013, 04:07:17 am »
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Offline Penitent

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Re: +3 Destrier (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2013, 06:23:10 am »
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Offline Ronin

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Re: MW Bastard Sword (+unloomed sales)
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2013, 12:45:03 pm »
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I have a hard time thinking of a good "interesting" play style, because I usually play boring old 18/18 one-hand shielder - Cav hybrid builds. :)

However, there one STF character that I did that was quite fun.  It was a STR based polearm build.  I believe it was 27/12 using a Ranseur, Spetum, or Corseque.  I'm sure its a very similar playstyle to a hoplite, which you are used to.  There is a significant different though...you would be forgoing the use of a shield for increased range, damage, and/or speed.  It's kind of like playing a pike-man build, but these weapons do significantly more damage and its quite fun. 

Well, it's a suggestion anyways!
Oh sorry, I forgot to answer this. This sounds truly fun. I just wanted to find a +3 version of one of those diablo2-like spears to try out, but sadly I couldn't. So I forgot to try it out as well, therefore also forgot giving you a proper answer.

I like str builds, because they are the boss builds for infantry. I tried a swashbuckler nowadays with a build of 27/12 and it was truly awesome. Can't wait to try this out this evening too. I think I just have to try it with a unloomed weapon. I don't think it will matter much though. What type of armor would you recommend for this?
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D