[Applications] Item balancers

[Ronin]

Apsod has my vote, because he is (or was) also a mod developer. His mod was about peasant fights which I always wanted to play but couldn't get to work, it always seemed like a very good idea. I have faith in him that he knows balancing classes around both fun factor and effectivity are both very important. What he writes, also confirm that. Plus, I completely agree with the rest of his ideas.

I think he deserves to be an item balancer, even if the community don't deserve him that much.

Edit: Please retract my application.

[Apsod]

^ Nice application, lets say you make it to the balancing team, what do you have in mind?

There are a few different things I'd like to look into.

• Removing the option to use a shield with daggers if possible.
• Increasing the damage on the Rondel dagger to balance it with the other daggers.
• Increasing accuracy and decreasing missile speed for all bows to make archery more skill-based.
• Increasing the weight on bolts to reduce kiting.
• Decreasing the weight on Spathovaklion by 0.2 to reduce the chance of knockdown.
• Changing the Javelins somehow, but I'm not sure what the best option would be yet.
• Increasing Heavy Great Sword cut damage by 1.
• Increasing Flambard cut damage by 2.
• Increasing Two Handed Sword cut and thrust damage by 1.
• Increasing Great Long Bardiche cut damage by 2 and decreasing its speed by 1.
• Increasing the thrust damage on Great Long Axe and Long War Axe by 1.

There are more things I'd like to change, but these are some examples. Feel free to ask questions behind each of these changes and I'll explain more in depth.

(click to show/hide)

Apsod has my vote, because he is (or was) also a mod developer. His mod was about peasant fights which I always wanted to play but couldn't get to work, it always seemed like a very good idea. I have faith in him that he knows that he knows balancing classes around both fun factor and effectivity. What he writes, also confirm that. Plus, I completely agree with the rest of his ideas.

I think he deserves to be an item balancer, even if the community don't deserve him that much.

Edit: Please retract my application.

Thank you for the kind words Ronin! Nice to see that you remember my mod even though it was many years ago.

[Leshma]

Increasing accuracy and decreasing missile speed for all bows to make archery more skill-based.

Big bows already have poor missile speed. Further reducing missile speed of Longbow would mean it can't hit anything at long range. You can't buff bow accuracy stat, I mean you can but that won't solve anything.

Because accuracy or precision is determined by pd, wpf, missile speed, accuracy stat, draw speed and damage. All those factors are in play. Also you need to know that crosshair in 3rd person mode is off. Getting used to it is enough skill based combined with low missile speeds.

Basically, by posting quoted you have shown us that you know very little about archery, less than me who only played two gens of lolarchery in last 12 months (but still more than Tydeus and Paul combined).

What we really need is to sack current inactive balancers (Paul, Tydeus and Fasader/Jacko) and introduce a team of active and dedicated players for each class. And let them buff their classes as much they want, but restricting them to change classes they don't play. That way, this mod would again become fun because everything would be deadly.

[Bulzur]

I'm also quite interested in Apsod's application.

But seriously, decreasing missile speed for bows is actually going to make archery more luck based, than skill based.
Poorer missile speed means less range, and to compensate for this, wider arc (aiming higher), and so, very easy to dodge. After shooting your arrow, you'll just have to pray for 5second that your target doesn't move, or moves in the direction you want to, for the amount of feet you guessed, to actually hit. Wich will just be pure luck. Increasing your accuracy won't mean that much, since a lot of other criteria influence it, whereas there's only PD for missile speed (if i'm not mistaken).

At this precise moment, my main concern with archery is the greater missile speed for low tier bows. Since they're already more accurate, and we have a huge damage boost for headshots, it's actually "more" viable to go around with a cheap nomad bow, than with a rus bow. Wich doesn't make any sense, price wise.

I thought price were supposed to reflect the effectiveness of the weapon, wich doesn't really work with archery (only bodkin arrows being way more expensive than tatar makes sense).
Wich was also why i really hate the rondel+shield builds (and now long dagger+shield), since it's very cheap (close to leeching cost) and yet very effective.

[Apsod]

Big bows already have poor missile speed. Further reducing missile speed of Longbow would mean it can't hit anything at long range. You can't buff bow accuracy stat, I mean you can but that won't solve anything.

Because accuracy or precision is determined by pd, wpf, missile speed, accuracy stat, draw speed and damage. All those factors are in play. Also you need to know that crosshair in 3rd person mode is off. Getting used to it is enough skill based combined with low missile speeds.

Basically, by posting quoted you have shown us that you know very little about archery, less than me who only played two gens of lolarchery in last 12 months (but still more than Tydeus and Paul combined).

What we really need is to sack current inactive balancers (Paul, Tydeus and Fasader/Jacko) and introduce a team of active and dedicated players for each class. And let them buff their classes as much they want, but restricting them to change classes they don't play. That way, this mod would again become fun because everything would be deadly.

While I said "for all bows", I meant mostly for the weaker bows with way too high missile speed. Keep in mind that I said look into. I'd like to explore the possibility of making archery more skill-based through reducing their missile speed and having them be more accurate. This is one of my more controversial suggestions and I am not sure if it would actually work out. I got the idea from Zlisch(iirc) a while back and I liked the idea.

Also, accuracy as in the size of the crosshair is not affected by missile speed or draw speed. The fact that the crosshair is off in 3rd person mode doesn't really take a long time getting used too.

But seriously, decreasing missile speed for bows is actually going to make archery more luck based, than skill based.
Poorer missile speed means less range, and to compensate for this, wider arc (aiming higher), and so, very easy to dodge. After shooting your arrow, you'll just have to pray for 5second that your target doesn't move, or moves in the direction you want to, for the amount of feet you guessed, to actually hit. Wich will just be pure luck. Increasing your accuracy won't mean that much, since a lot of other criteria influence it, whereas there's only PD for missile speed (if i'm not mistaken).

The way I see it is this. You would have to calculate better when shooting at a target far away or a target running sideways from you. It would be more about timing your shoots correctly and knowing how high to aim. If you manage to get under control the increased accuracy would let you become very effective because of the lack of randomness.

[Panos_]

Ok it is done, Dave & Apsod for the balance team

Zagibu for texturer 

[Algarn]

While I said "for all bows", I meant mostly for the weaker bows with way too high missile speed. Keep in mind that I said look into. I'd like to explore the possibility of making archery more skill-based through reducing their missile speed and having them be more accurate. This is one of my more controversial suggestions and I am not sure if it would actually work out. I got the idea from Zlisch(iirc) a while back and I liked the idea.

Also, accuracy as in the size of the crosshair is not affected by missile speed or draw speed. The fact that the crosshair is off in 3rd person mode doesn't really take a long time getting used too.

Yes, but people would be able to cheat to get crosshairs. Furthermore ... Bows from Nomad bow until Yumi ARE accurate. Give more missile speed to long and rus bow (also reduce accuracy by 1 since the last patch given 1), and reduce the missile speed to those nomad bows. If you do that, to make the re balance more effective, reverse the patch that advantages from looms, if you want to be archer without looms, without a single gen as archer, then, go fuck yourself, and see all your arrows bounce on 60+ body armor if they already reach the target. It would prevent trolls that pick up their STF and play archer/HA.

[Leshma]

I got the idea from Zlisch(iirc) a while back and I liked the idea.

Apsod, you have my support. But please, never ever again mention something like that publicly. Because if people get the impression that Zlisch has any influence on you, there is no way they are going to continue to support you

Also balancing isn't all about stats (my opinion). For past 3 years they are balancing between realism (restrictions) and fun. My personal opinion is that at current stage, cRPG should go for fun and ignore realism. That is the only way to get back those high numbers on servers.

[Apsod]

Yes, but people would be able to cheat to get crosshairs. Furthermore ... Bows from Nomad bow until Yumi ARE accurate. Give more missile speed to long and rus bow (also reduce accuracy by 1 since the last patch given 1), and reduce the missile speed to those nomad bows. If you do that, to make the re balance more effective, reverse the patch that advantages from looms, if you want to be archer without looms, without a single gen as archer, then, go fuck yourself, and see all your arrows bounce on 60+ body armor if they already reach the target. It would prevent trolls that pick up their STF and play archer/HA.

Damage or speed buffs could be given to compensate for the lower missile speed for bows that already have pinpoint accuracy.

Apsod, you have my support. But please, never ever again mention something like that publicly. Because if people get the impression that Zlisch has any influence on you, there is no way they are going to continue to support you

I give credit where credit is due.

Also balancing isn't all about stats (my opinion). For past 3 years they are balancing between realism (restrictions) and fun. My personal opinion is that at current stage, cRPG should go for fun and ignore realism. That is the only way to get back those high numbers on servers.

I am all for fun instead of realism, though a nice balance is needed.

[Algarn]

And it gonna buff horse archers, aka current pain in EU 1. More buffs/nerfs = more tears ... (I wish you god luck, because trying to balance this game is called madness  )

[Kafein]

Reducing missile speed and increasing accuracy is my idea, so you have my support for that Also, this is not about internal bow balance, even though it is fucked up. It's the current average missile speed that is a problem, not that fact that alternative bows are slower.

However

• Increasing Two Handed Sword cut and thrust damage by 1.
• Increasing Great Long Bardiche cut damage by 2 and decreasing its speed by 1.
• Increasing the thrust damage on Great Long Axe and Long War Axe by 1.

No. Or maybe yes, if for example all LWA and GLB type weapons get a serious speed nerf, not just 1. And more importantly, all melee weapons get a damage buff, no just a select few (I don't know how you chose, but those don't really need it).

[Apsod]

And it gonna buff horse archers, aka current pain in EU 1. More buffs/nerfs = more tears ... (I wish you god luck, because trying to balance this game is called madness  )

Yeah about HA and HX. I had this idea of adding new arrows and bolts for horse ranged and giving the old arrows and bolts the "unusable on horseback" tag. These new arrows and bolts would have less ammo so that horse ranged would not be able to kite for ages like they can now. Not sure if this counts as "Item balancing", but imo its an idea worth considering.

[Apsod]

No. Or maybe yes, if for example all LWA and GLB type weapons get a serious speed nerf, not just 1. And more importantly, all melee weapons get a damage buff, no just a select few (I don't know how you chose, but those don't really need it).

The reason for the changes to the GLB was because I felt that 46 cut was too little damage for it and a 1 point increase would still be too little, but increasing its damage by 2 without a nerf would be too extreme so 1 speed less seemed fair to me.

The increased thrust damage on GLA and LWA was to make them more balanced with the Long Axe. I feel that it is a fair buff.
 
The Two Handed Sword definitely needs a buff imo. Compare it to the Long Sword and then to the Great Sword and then you'll see that it hardly fits in with its current stats.

But yeah, I agree that more weapons needs to have their stats changed. I just decided to mention a few weapon that I could think of at the top of my head as examples for my thinking. I am not 100% sure about the changes to the GLA, GLB and LWA since I haven't looked too much into those yet.


Edit: Sorry for double posting. Didn't even notice until it was too late.

[Ronin]

Apsod it's nice to see you planning your work already man, but let me tell you a thing. Great long axe thrust damage might not need a buff, before deciding that I'd suggest you to see how experienced polearm axe users use it. I dueled tor yesterday and his thrusts were so instant, and were mostly followed by a kick. If I was like 0,1 second late I would have been kicked after getting hit by that thrust, a thrust that was nearly unblockable. The thrust attack, is of course, not faster than an awlpike; however awlpike has 1 fast and 1 slow attack directions; while long axes are fairly potent in 4 directions. When fighting an awlipke user you can simply anticipate as if your opponent is going to use a thrust attack and only change your block if they try an overhead. In long axes, you have to watch out for 3 fast and 1 very fast attacking directions.

Long axe users, use it as more of an interruption move; which is fairly useful at their work. If the thrust damage is to be increased, it will hurt a bit more.

Just my 2 cents.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

I'm not sure you can disable certain ammo on horseback without scripts/triggers that force the ammo to be dropped.

Make long axe do blunt damage on the thrust or adjust the model.