Poll

Do you think that modifying textures or sounds to make the game easier is cheating?

Yes
No
I don't care

Author Topic: Cheating textures  (Read 9787 times)

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Offline cmp

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2013, 10:18:21 pm »
+1
I know this isn't big enough to care about, but won't this be sort of a pain in the ass for us people who like to screw around with textures and meshes locally?

Yep. But as you said, it's not big (or important) enough to care about.

And won't it make it harder for the people working on gear mods to actively test whether their latest minor changes aren't bugged to some extent?

Nope. They will be able to host a local server with checks disabled.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2013, 10:24:24 pm »
0
Truly a sad day for the thriving cRPG modding scene and the dozens of mods being updated daily.

You could discuss this without sarcasm.

This will put additional barriers and delays to overcome for potential modders. There's room for many silly and great mods to be made, many won't ever be made public, but if you have to go through some arduous process to get it validated to even to get to enjoy it yourself, most will likely be deterred from ever starting.

I can right now edit the files to make the Black Coat of Plates pink. How long would I have to wait for this silly and probably only fun for myself mod to be validated?

I believe this ability to mod in or mod out things, like the dreaded female war scream has vastly extended the lifetime of crpg and I hold it in high regard as something fairly unique in the gaming world.

If validation has to be there, it should be selective and minimal.

Offline cmp

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2013, 12:53:07 am »
+5
This will put additional barriers and delays to overcome for potential modders. There's room for many silly and great mods to be made, many won't ever be made public, but if you have to go through some arduous process to get it validated to even to get to enjoy it yourself, most will likely be deterred from ever starting.

I can right now edit the files to make the Black Coat of Plates pink. How long would I have to wait for this silly and probably only fun for myself mod to be validated?

Actually, validation is for mods that are to be published and distributed. This effectively kills "only fun for myself" mods, but it's a price I'll gladly pay.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2013, 03:57:15 am »
-5
Actually, validation is for mods that are to be published and distributed. This effectively kills "only fun for myself" mods, but it's a price I'll gladly pay.

Of course, that is a developer decision to make. However I hope that decision is made after considering both the downsides as well as the upsides fully.

The main point of my post is that the public mods and the private "just-screwing-around" or just testing mods are not removed from each other. Affecting one will have consequences for the other. And I believe for the whole mod down the line which is why I bother to write about this.

To use another game as an example; Let's take TES:Oblivion under examination. It still has a lively community built around modding and adding still more content into the game, even though it has slowed considerably. Would this ever have happened if modders could only access some kind of sterile testing environment with their mods, and never use them in the mode that they enjoy playing, which would be the main story mode for Oblivion, unless they published them and had them signed by Betheseda?
If Crpg now is like Oblivion from the perspective of modders, what would happen to it with the tinkering mods killed?
The game would be a much more locked down one, a game with not much freedom for expression.
Such a game is much, much less likely to attract creative types, a critical resource for a community driven game.

The obvious complaint about the above analogy is that Oblivion is fully offline, and not in any way comparable to an online game. To this I would say that it's an analogy, dummy, and analogies are never perfect. The main concern between offline and online games is cheating and if the cheating aspect of this was game breaking, Crpg couldn't have grown so popular and retained that popularity for years. With the biggest concern gone, I believe we can dismiss the complaint.

The difficulties in developing mods would also require more technical skills than they do now. You would either need the resources and know-how to run your own server, or at least access to someone who can do those things for you. This is a lot more required right at the start, compared to simply firing up Blender or Photoshop.
We have artists and visionaries and other jack-offs amongst us, let's not dismiss what they could offer to the mod because they are not as technically oriented.

Consider the open-source community. How much of open-source programs are made just for the needs of the developer? Originally made just for their private use? And maybe published after months or even years of polishing and private use, if it comes to that. If we stomp out tinkering, we stomp out the effect that gave the world Linux and countless other programs.

This would be the hard path to take, and asking much more of the devs. But I believe it is also the right path.
Just like politicians that can't decrease military or anti-terrorist funding, because they would take much flak for having done so if something bad happens, developers will come under fire for having the tools to stop all "cheating", and then not using them. It will be annoying.
But it just might be that small thing, that hidden factor, that causes or enables a positive feed-back loop that raises Crpg above the grey masses. After all, the easy moddability of this mod made the creative community that has gathered around it and has been partially recruited to further develop itself what it is now. I believe it would never have happened if tinkering was harder, and it would be a mistake to underestimate the future effect of this seemingly small change.

I will understand if it is decided to kill off non-whitelisted mods, but I'm afraid it will also be a nail in the coffin of the enthusiast spirit in this mod.



Offline cmp

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2013, 04:52:39 am »
+9
I think you're making a huge fuss out of something pretty much nobody cares about.
Also, the Oblivion comparison is horrible unless you are somehow trying to imply that cRPG is being kept alive by its modding community (its what?).

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2013, 04:58:18 am »
0
cRPG is kept alive by resources it can draw upon. Only yesterday chadz put up applications for many interested and capable persons to fill. How could it survive if it didn't have such people?

And the newest patch, how much of the new content was community provided?

Maybe cRPG has matured enough to not care about being open and attracting tinkerers. I hope it's so if tinkering is indeed made rather difficult.

In the mean time, I'll be replacing the vanilla Barbutte with the Hooded Barbutte which unfortunately didn't make it in. Having fun, you know.

Offline cmp

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 05:02:24 am »
0
cRPG is kept alive by resources it can draw upon. Only yesterday chadz put up applications for many interested and capable persons to fill. How could it survive if it didn't have such people?

And the newest patch, how much of the new content was community provided?

Both the things you mention are completely unaffected by this change. Just saying.

Offline Son Of Odin

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2013, 05:22:01 am »
+2
I hope I can still keep my own custom war screams... Had to replace that horrible woman yell some time ago (a year ago or more) :lol:. I don't want to publish it because I ripped the sounds from krhm... movies... :rolleyes: So they are kind of copyrighted material.
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2013, 05:30:48 am »
+1
Both the things you mention are completely unaffected by this change. Just saying.

The items already added certainly won't go away with this change, that's true. Will the interest remain as high though?
In complex systems, such as communities, the effects of even small chances are often hard to foresee.

Offline cmp

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2013, 01:33:00 pm »
0
No, it's not about the items we already have. It's about the process used to create those items, which isn't really affected by this. The rest is just speculation.

Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2013, 01:53:08 pm »
+1
It is just speculation. Much like a squirrel speculates on his own strength and the distance between trees before making a leap. We, however, might have poked holes in our wings without even noticing.

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2013, 05:40:51 pm »
+3
Making people  "suffer" with default graphics, or with mods that are developer approved is far better (IMO) than allowing people to have semi transparent walls, spikes coming out of character models, bushes that are flat on the ground (that other people can't see through) or having long spears and pikes be rainbow colored so it's easy for cavalry to dodge them. 

If cheating being prevented is the upside and you being able to fuck around with your graphics on a personal level is the down side, then it's a pretty obvious choice here.  And as cmp said, this won't change anything with you being able to fuck around with graphics to test things out, you just won't be able to join the official servers with variables that aren't pre-approved (paraphrasing don't beat me up cmp)
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Offline Rhekimos

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2013, 08:37:27 pm »
-1
A little liberty to gain a little security ...

Offline Elio

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2013, 12:41:31 am »
+6
Just found this :

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Offline Tomas

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Re: Cheating textures
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2013, 02:01:48 am »
0
Think I agree with cmp here.  All objects have the potential to be edited for personal gain by increasing visibility.  Even armours are exploitable as if you make them all pink then its easier to see your enemies.  Yes you could have someone in TS telling you where people are, but they can't give you their exact location allowing you to shoot them whilst they can't see you as clearly.  Unfortunately this cuts down customisation and modding which is sad :(

Perhaps there is a way in which you can customize your own appearance and weapons only??  It seems unlikely but if it were possible to allow that then it could offer the best of both worlds.