Fix Armor Soak/whatever Formulas

[Smoothrich]

A while ago armors and weapons were all rebalanced which did nothing but slow down gameplay, imbalance all weapons, and just screw things up in general.  On top of character movement restrictions I think it has turned the game for the worse, and should be reverted.

The idea would be to make lower end cut damage more effective, and slightly reduce pierce/blunt damage, make lighter armor more desirable and heavy armor more "tankish" instead of purely HP padding.

What it could accomplish:

Nerf: 
2hand stab
Xbows
Heavy throwing axes (currently being calced  as Pierce damage)
Bodkin-agility archers
Lancers
Hoplites
Pikers
Steel picks
All gay knockdown weapons
Loomed high-end medium armor with +3 gauntlets (yawn)

Buff:
All 1handed swords
Unpopular weapons of all varieties
Faster weapons with lower damage
Lower end bows
Cheaper arrows
Light AND high-end plate armor to make medium-high less desirable
Footwork

Plate armor should probably trigger more glances as well against cut weapons, but take much more damage from accurate well placed hits.

This would increase lethality of combat for almost all classes and higher glance chance/higher damage delivered rewards skill and makes sense design wise.

Possibly increase WPF penalties for high end armors.  Make people want WM more, and glancing is more tactically useful then just HP sponge that armor is now.

Basically don't fuck with items so much but rethink armor a bit, the game played a lot better before all this stuff got fucked with too much and now everyone is in god tier medium-heavy loomed armor and take a million hits and half the weapons are worthless and some just stupid OP in general.

[Phew]

Sounds good to me. Right now high-damage cut weapons are the ideal weapon for every situation, while low-medium cut weapons are basically useless against the average 2h hero. 1-hand players have to use pierce/blunt to do any damage, but 2h strength players do so much damage with loomed greatswords and axes that they don't have any incentive to switch to pierce/blunt against even heavy plate.

I'd like to see plate get better against high cut damage, and loomed medium armor get worse against low-medium cut damage. Meanwhile, pierce/blunt should continue to be highly effective against plate, while being worse than cut against light-medium armor.

[Smoothrich]

Sounds good to me. Right now high-damage cut weapons are the ideal weapon for every situation, while low-medium cut weapons are basically useless against the average 2h hero. 1-hand players have to use pierce/blunt to do any damage, but 2h strength players do so much damage with loomed greatswords and axes that they don't have any incentive to switch to pierce/blunt against even heavy plate.

I'd like to see plate get better against high cut damage, and loomed medium armor get worse against low-medium cut damage. Meanwhile, pierce/blunt should continue to be highly effective against plate, while being worse than cut against light-medium armor.

Exactly.

[Phew]

I'll provide an anecdotal description of the problem; I have 57 body armor (loomed heraldic) and 53 hit points. I get 1-shot all the time by loomed Miaodaos, Great Axes, Claymores, Flamberges, etc. Meanwhile, the poor sap with say an unloomed Italian Sword has to hit me 7-10 times.

The strength 2h guy shouldn't be 1-shotting me, but the 1h sword guy shouldn't need 10 swings to kill me either.

[Smoothrich]

I'll provide an anecdotal description of the problem; I have 57 body armor (loomed heraldic) and 53 hit points. I get 1-shot all the time by loomed Miaodaos, Great Axes, Claymores, Flamberges, etc. Meanwhile, the poor sap with say an unloomed Italian Sword has to hit me 7-10 times.

The strength 2h guy shouldn't be 1-shotting me, but the 1h sword guy shouldn't need 10 swings to kill me either.

I also hate how much damage long pierce weapons do, regardless of your armor type.  2hand Lolstab, pikes, hoplites, all of them hit like a damn truck and long poking weapons don't have the expected penalties of "short, slow, but powerful" like most blunt or pierce weapons have on their own.

In fact, if you wear lighter armor, these attacks tend to do even more damage because you will be hit by more speed bonus and pierce seems magically doing triple damage no matter what all the time even if its a lot lower stated damage value.

I think tweaking down pierce damage on medium-light armor a bit but leaving it rather effective against plate (making plate good against all cut types including STR build giant swords but relatively weaker against armor piercing attacks) would create more logical AND fun balance at the same time.

[Phew]

Yeah Smoothrich, I forgot all the times I've been 1-shot by Great Sword and Awlpike thrusts, but I think that's an artifact of how speed bonus is calculated. It would be nice to see cut always be the best choice against <40 armor targets, pierce always be best for 40-60 armor targets, and blunt be best for 60+. Right now we have:
-For str 2h users, cut best for all targets
-For 1h, blunt best for all targets

Which is kind of boring.

[Tydeus]

Either you guys needs some serious fact checking, or you need to cool it with the general statements. This thread was awful to read.
"-For str 2h users, cut best for all targets
-For 1h, blunt best for all targets"
Geh...

It's not the Soak/Reduce formula that is the problem. You can fix most of these issues easily by scaling armor values so that the max armor amount is about 60 with heirlooms and reducing cut damage on the harder hitting weapons by 2~ points.

[Phew]

Either you guys needs some serious fact checking, or you need to cool it with the general statements. This thread was awful to read.
"-For str 2h users, cut best for all targets
-For 1h, blunt best for all targets"

All of these statements are backed up by the damage calculator. For instance, a Great Axe will do about the same or more damage as a Bar mace up to plate levels. And a Warhammer will outdamage a Nordic Champion's Sword on everything above naked.

[cmp]

All of these statements are backed up by the damage calculator

Which one? The web one using guesswork formulas or the other one?

[Molly]

My feeling tells me the same story when it comes to 1h tbh.
I have 7 PS with a Long Espada and I still glance/bounce even on a left swing sometimes. Never happens using a blunt 1h with even less PS.

Sure, tell me I just can't play, my footwork sucks and I am a noob but I am not the only one having this "feeling". Just make a poll or ask around. It is certainly easier to kill with blunt/pierce than cut as 1h.

Just came up with a good example (maybe): I can kill a guy with my Espada with 2 stabs but I need 3, 4 or even 5 slashes with a swing - all body hits only. The only difference is the damage type really.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

I just can't play, my footwork sucks and I am a noob.

lol, with a short espada and 5ps I rarely glance on swings (stabs are another story), and when I do it's usually clear why, sure 2h/poles aren't bound by nearly as sharp rules, but it is still mostly clear why I'm glancing.

On topic: No need to alter the armor/soak values, what is needed is an overall decrease in bodyarmor (so loomed milanese and loomed heavy gauntlets at max can give 60 armor), a nerf in medium armor overall, and a nerf to high cut damage (keep the lower ones were they are).

[Soldier_of_God]

Im sorry, but this sounds terrible. everything is fine just as it is, from the perspective of a lancer/polearm/1h

Lancers
Hoplites
Pikers

are op when in groups. when 2v1? they're all screwed. especially lancers, all it takes is 1 aware player with a weapon that has 110 length or more and you're screwed.

[Phew]

Which one? The web one using guesswork formulas or the other one?

I usually use http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/, but Espu's gives the same values (just with a fixed 0.25s hold).

For instance, a char with 8 Power Strike and 140 wpf, 0.25s hold; Both a Bar Mace (35 blunt) and a Great Axe (46 cut) do roughly the same mean damage to 70 armor.

In other words, a +3 Highland Claymore does the same damage to plate as an unloomed bar mace. High cut damage weapons shouldn't be ideal against every target; there should be an incentive to carry a pierce/blunt sidearm for hard targets (like 1h players have to do).

[cmp]

I usually use http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB/, but Espu's gives the same values (just with a fixed 0.25s hold).

Both use old guesswork formulas by Urist.

[Phew]

Both use old guesswork formulas by Urist.

Perhaps you should mention this in the stickied threads for the respective damage calculators, with the correct formulas, so they can be updated. Many players rely on these calculators to make build/weapon decisions.