Author Topic: Longbow worse than pre-patch?  (Read 16448 times)

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Offline CaptainQuantum

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Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« on: April 29, 2011, 09:03:52 pm »
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I would like to start by saying no trolls, those who think archery is OP (post or pre patch) get out since you are probably trolls who think it's OP because you don't carry a shield. Also I am unsure of whether it is worse or not, since it could be down to arrow speed changes throwing my timings off.

Now we are past logistics lets state the issues, I have noticed the longbow is way worse than it was pre patch, yeah it now has pierce damage but its damage has been reduced from 27(ish)C to 24P so on low armoured targets I am doing worse. It can now take an extra arrow (3 up from 2) to kill another archer now, I also have noticed not much increased damage on heavier armoured targets too. Another trade off to take the longbow even further back is the accuracy reduction, it's now 5 points less accurate than the warbow or strong bow. So it has similar damage to the warbow for targets archers go for as the warbow now, yet it is much slower.

The final killing blow to the longbow is the 2 slot component of it, 2 slots for bow 2 sets for arrows and none for melee. The longbow does so little damage compared to the speed there is no way of killing a target before it reaches you now, you will get 2 arrows off before they reach you, with strafing you probably will not get one on target. Once they have reached you your dead since you have no melee now. This makes archery with a longbow impossible in battles.

Thanks for reading and I encourage other peoples opinions even if they don't agree with mine, (as long as they're from people who have tried the longbow themselves in battle servers and not just saw 4 archers and gone "OMG I should totally be able to p0wn all those 4 archers because I am a two hander". ).

From my more recent post but for arguments sake I will put it here too:
Using Warband damage calculations with chadz' soak factors and reduction factors I have just shown algebreically and graphically to myself that the longbow never wins on damage, for ANY armour type. The calculations are somewhat complex but I will explain as best as I can here.
The amount of damage done follows the equation D=(d - s*a)(1-(r*a/100))*p where d is the base damage per shot, s is the soak factor, r is the reduction factor and p is some probabilistic modifier. p is probabilistic but same so it can be cancelled on either side. For the calculation of d I assumed bow base damage since power draw is not constant for all and will assist the warbow more than the longbow. Setting the different equations equal to one another for the warbow and longbow equivalents reveals complex solutions, i.e they don't intersect in the [real] plane. That was some A-level maths about intersection points so forgive me, what it basically means is that the longbow never breaks even with the warbow for ANY armour value since the damage drops to zero before the longbow can catch up. I used a graphical calculator to verify this, although most of you won't own one so you will have to take my word for it there. If my damage calculations (based on how they are calculated in native) are correct then the warbow is always better for damage. I would encourage people who can to verify this, because I am not superhuman I can make mistakes.

With this calculation, provided I have made no error, and that crpg uses this equation which was used in Warband Native, there is no dispute about whether the longbow is internally balanced with the longbow, the longbow simply loses on every stat including damage.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 08:17:47 am by Kalam »

Offline ToxicKilla

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2011, 09:08:38 pm »
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Totally agree with this.
Longbow is completely useless in comparison to other bows.

Offline MrShine

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2011, 09:10:49 pm »
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Forgive me if I'm passing false rumors (not at home to test) but I heard that there are some 0 slot 1-h melee weapons around.  If so that should at least provide you some option to defend yourself in melee.
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Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2011, 09:11:31 pm »
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Daggers only, so no parry. Not exactly defense. Without parry there is not even a chance of surviving. Also someone reduced my awesomebar by 1 point, clearly there was a two hander spammer here (by the way not all 2 hands are spammers or noobs, most understand they should get killed by archers) .
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:13:56 pm by CaptainQuantum »

Offline Tennenoth

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2011, 09:14:08 pm »
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Ok, playing an archer since day one of playing Warband, getting different knowledge from archers within the Caravan Guild and having used the longbow 90% of my foot archer life I can say that I cannot see the damage reduction, I find that to unarmoured targets, I couldn't one shot them to begin with, I found that I had to hit twice. Yes the accuracy of bows shouldn't have been changed in my opinion, as I have said, it has forced people to use one of three bows but I do not believe that it is worse than pre-patch.

My accuracy has been fairly stable, although the reduction to the longbow is still a mystery to me, I am just pleased that the fine longbow still holds the accuracy of a basic one pre-patch while the damage difference between piercing and cutting much improves how I play.

I think your timings are out if I am honest because for the first couple of rounds I found myself shooting well over the heads of targets before I realised that the arrow speeds were increased, dramatically changing the way I play.

I don't like having to run around with a one handed weapon, but I do feel if you're using a longbow, you pick your shots, you will hit 90% of your arrows (15 bodkins) and I have never found myself at a lost where I can't just shotgun the enemy away unless they have 10 athletics and are basically lagging like mad or similar.

I am not a good player, I am not well known but I can safely say that the longbow is not worse than pre-patch, besides the increase in 2 speed means that it is finally more viable as it means that you can use it with lower wpf because it is slightly faster, it's also proved to me that the community with the right evidence can convince the devs to look into these things and change them to suit the game play.

Try it a little longer or change to the warbow, it'll grow on you or I will be one of the few again who enjoy the pleasure of the relaxed longbow :)
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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2011, 09:16:28 pm »
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Longbow is balanced with the new nerfs, it makes sense that strongest bow can actually hurt tincans, which is the point, its not designed as anti-archer, but as anti-tincan.  Will be using it a lot with 1 large bag of normal arrows (30) and spiked mace (1 slot), but strong bow and khergit bow still have their place with 1 slot, use them with more ammo or with better 2her, and warbow's decent cut damage and shoot speed balanced by 2 slots, so they each have their place and uses.  Like how the short bow seems a little faster now so actually worth using now and again.  Overall balanced nerf and enjoying archery.

Sidenote:  I was testing damage with clanmate with longbow and at point blank range shooting straight into midsection the arrow passed through his body 3 times before i aimed higher and hit him in the neck.  Minor bug that probably needs fixing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:17:54 pm by Keshian »
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Offline Paul

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2011, 09:17:08 pm »
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the higher the base damage, the lower is the effect of the accuracy stat on precision(hardcoded). longbow base damage got lowered(changed to pierce), that's why accu had to be lowered too.

the more you know...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:18:12 pm by Paul »

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2011, 09:18:58 pm »
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Perhaps you are right, although the speed increase is not all that welcome to me, I liked it's slow but heavy damage. I think the accuracy needs to meet that of the warbow. I agree that probably most of my issues lie with increased arrow speeds, I normally get 3:1 KD ratios on siege but post patch it's gone down to as little as 1 kill per match. I will play a little more tomorrow and hope I improve.

Offline Tennenoth

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2011, 09:20:29 pm »
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the higher the base damage, the lower is the effect of the accuracy stat on precision(hardcoded). longbow base damage got lowered(changed to pierce), that's why accu had to be lowered too.

the more you know...

I guess that's why you have the little developer tags, no longer a mystery although the accuracy did get reduced after I went to bed at half 5 GMT+1 and logging on again at 4pm GMT+1... It was reduced by 1 in that time.

Also the reason that the speed was increased to 50 was to rid most people with a reasonable amount of wpf of the release flaw, it constantly had a delay before release because of this and the reticle would go start to waver before you let off a shot, now with 50 you can have 90-100 wpf and it won't do that, it's needed.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:21:47 pm by Tennenoth »
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Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2011, 09:23:30 pm »
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Would be nice to allow a 1 hand (which could manual block just has terrible damage) take no slots, I just need something to parry with because right now when someone reaches me, its either die or run like a coward. I can't use 1 set of arrows because loomed bodkins only give 17 now, it wouldn't be too nice to throw away a loomed item either.

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2011, 09:25:01 pm »
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Also the reason that the speed was increased to 50 was to rid most people with a reasonable amount of wpf of the release flaw, it constantly had a delay before release because of this and the reticle would go start to waver before you let off a shot, now with 50 you can have 90-100 wpf and it won't do that, it's needed.

I was unaware of this, makes sense though so thanks for telling me of this.

Offline Tzar

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2011, 09:28:58 pm »
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Your fairy weapon is fine people gettin kills and shot to peices on the battle server as allways still cant complete a swing without gettin 2-3 shot by fairy´s...  if im lucky i get to enter battle with 10 hp out my 75. that or im dead from a rain of arrows.... :(

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« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:30:38 pm by Tzar »
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2011, 09:42:42 pm »
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Your fairy weapon is fine people gettin kills and shot to peices on the battle server as allways still cant complete a swing without gettin 2-3 shot by fairy´s...  if im lucky i get to enter battle with 10 hp out my 75. that or im dead from a rain of arrows.... :(
Let me guess, two hander who refuses to equip a shield and expects that his class doesn't get owned by archers. Well I have news for you sir, all classes have something they are weak against for archery its shielders and cavalry. For you it's ranged, so don't complain buy a shield or learn to dodge. By the way thanks for the awesome bar increment whoever gave it, it's now back to normal.

On a sidenote: Thanks for restoring the old longbow image, my longbow looks like a long bow when it's in hand now.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:49:10 pm by CaptainQuantum »

Offline Tzar

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2011, 09:47:48 pm »
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Let me guess, two hander who refuses to equip a shield and expects that his class doesn't get owned by archers. Well I have news for you sir, all classes have something they are weak against for archery its shielders and cavalry. For you it's ranged, so don't complain buy a shield or learn to dodge. By the way thanks for the awesome bar increment whoever gave it, it's now back to normal.

I just gave u +

Anyways think what you will but

1st I have a shield.

2nd I cant use it because my weapon takes up both my hands while weilding it

3rd How should i be able to both dogde and parry and do footwork while in melee while u rain arrows on me be it team mates or foes.

4th I think archery is fine the way it is and think its silly u want the dmg and the ability to snipe people since i think that archery should only be and support role not and kdr monster class since it would just make c-RPG like native with every1 rolling archers.

Sry if i stepped on your toes m8 but its the same each day some legolass wants moar and moar buff to hes archer it just gets old  :rolleyes:

Coldblood_revanent still tops the scoreboard on the battle server form time to times along with jambi so i geuss u just gotta pratice if u think archery is ohh so bad  :lol:

Anyways we will never get along i geuss no point to continue this conversation.  :wink:
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 09:52:39 pm by Tzar »
I've never played a server where people split up as much or as often as on EU1.  No wonder range is having a field day.

Offline CaptainQuantum

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Re: Longbow worse than pre-patch?
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2011, 09:55:17 pm »
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Coldblood_Revenant is amazing, I think he is far past 31 though, so his build is going to be beyond that of a normal archer, sorry for misunderstanding you. I though you were a 2hand rager. Well the best thing to kill archery in melee is move irratically around the person you are fighting, no self respecting archer will fire into melee like that. I am not a legolas asking for more buffs, I was fine with archery pre patch, it's just the longbow was crap pre patch but I still did amazingly with it. It's just now the longbow seems worse to me, but I think it is now resolved, it is not my skill thats the problem, just the new arrow speed is messing me up. I was not asking for a major buff, I was asking mainly whether the arrow speed was causing other longbowmen to be like me.

Thanks for the +1, I apolagise for mistaking you for a 2 hander, it's just they irritate me by saying continually that archery is OP. The archers you see topping the boards are rare, I rarely did it pre patch and I was rather good with the longbow prepatch with high KD ratios, it was just slow to get kills and I rarely died. You are correct about range spam but it's mainly down to numbers, 1 on 1 longbow archery is terrible up to now.