Rework axes (some general proposals)

[Zanze]

I think axes are fine as is. They already do an overload of cut damage which already destroys light/medium armor. The strongest 1h axe has 5 more cut damage the the strongest 1h sword. For almost a third of the price, the 2h axes hit as hard as the flamberge.

My friend Turboflex walks around with 8 PS and use to own a +3 Broad 1h Axe and would report routinely killing people in 1 strike when they wore light mail or weaker. The two handed variants have almost 10 more cut than that axe, and two handed users usually have more than 8 powerstrike as well.(Hell, I, In +3 Armor and Gloves, have been 1 shotted by enemy axemen.) Axes are fine.

[San]

A hybrid damage type shouldn't get much more base damage than 40 total imo, depending on the percentage of cut and how the heck it will work. If axes were hybridized in damage type, then their base damages needs to be adjusted properly. I already think the axes are very good since the recent patch to them.

[Paul]

The hybrid damage type idea is as old as sin. I think Arch3r first posted it way back in Warband beta. A long time  ago we discussed it for cRPG and iirc came to the conclusion that axes should have something in between of cut and pierce or cut and blunt. It was planned to implement it once the damage system gets reworked.

I dunno what the status is on that now. Maybe cmp still has it written on the old pizza boxes he uses as todo-lists. Other stuff is probably more important now. A quick-and-easy solution would be to give axes a flag that makes them use the arithmetic mean of cut and pierce soak/reduce armor parameters in damage calc. Might be a bit much with the recent axe damage buff though.

[Commodore_Axephante]

The hybrid damage type idea is as old as sin. I think Arch3r first posted it way back in Warband beta. A long time  ago we discussed it for cRPG and iirc came to the conclusion that axes should have something in between of cut and pierce or cut and blunt. It was planned to implement it once the damage system gets reworked.

I dunno what the status is on that now. Maybe cmp still has it written on the old pizza boxes he uses as todo-lists. Other stuff is probably more important now. A quick-and-easy solution would be to give axes a flag that makes them use the arithmetic mean of cut and pierce soak/reduce armor parameters in damage calc. Might be a bit much with the recent axe damage buff though.

Yeah, I didn't know there was an axe damage buff recently, though I might have suggested that the damage totals adjust accordingly if anything like these armor considerations were implimented. In any case, it's refreshing to hear a dev echo my ideas (or, hear myself unknowingly echo theirs). Thanks for the input.

[Sagar]

Only small corrections. Current status for +3 Great Axe is: Speed: 95; Length: 96; Swing: 49 cut; Unbalanced; Bonus against shield.

[BlueKnight]

I mean look, it will kill people if you hit them with it, yeah. But can anyone argue that it stands up to any of the greatswords? What with all their stabbiness, etc? Is the shield bonus really enough to make up for that, and the shorter length?

You spend 2 much time on forums and such shit like this stays in your head. Axes like great axe are 1-hit-victory. It means that if you accidentally hit the enemy he will shit his pants, especially if it's ~95 speed 49cut dmg great axe (+3). Axes are good if you know how to use them, like everything in this mod...

[Commodore_Axephante]

You spend 2 much time on forums and such shit like this stays in your head. Axes like great axe are 1-hit-victory. It means that if you accidentally hit the enemy he will shit his pants, especially if it's ~95 speed 49cut dmg great axe (+3). Axes are good if you know how to use them, like everything in this mod...

Hahaha, I'll freely admit that I've spent too much time on the forums lately. Believe me, I'd much rather be doing other things, but I'm short on options right now. But I don't think my suggestions exactly approximate trolling, here. There is such a thing as positive changes that improve diversity. If axes were given their own niche, axe-man would be its own class, sort of like the long-spear. I think based on his previous comment that Paul and the other Devs see that, too.

[Digglez]

yep axes and heavy ended swords like Falchion, Cleavers and Nordic Swords (whose majority of weight/mass is distributed at the end of the weapon) should do HACK damage, which is 50% cut, 50% blunt.  They have large surface area and use their weight & mass at the end of the weapon to HACK, not cut/slice/pierce a target.

[CrazyCracka420]

I think the typically higher cut damage of the axes (compared to the 1h swords, 2h swords, or other polearms) is consistent with the representation of the axes doing more damage against lightly armed opponents.

So I think the main concern of the OP is already addressed in cRPG

[Mammonist]

I'm just thinking of random shit here but maybe every cut weapon should have a seperate blunt damage stat depending on weight when dealing damage against heavy armour.


I mean, if you swing something sharp at plate armor, it probably won't cut through it and therefore it will deal blunt damage rather than cut damage. Axes being top-heavy would deal more blunt damage than a balanced sword.


I don't know whether I'm right, wrong or potato OR if this would make any sense in the actual game (maybe the higher cut on axes is already enough). Just my string of thought.

[LordRichrich]

Just like to say, that in medieval Europe, the axe became nearly extinct as a weapon. Swords were the choice of the noble and knight class. Then obviously the "professional armies" that became more frequent used swords, maces and the such.

Based off that, the reason why axes are "inferior" to the other weapon classes is because they weren't continued through medieval technology. What I mean by this is that the nobles continued having stronger and harder steel for their blades, maces became smaller while staying the same weight, which made them a more attractive weapon. The point is, axes fell out of use BECAUSE they filled such a niche cap.

Think as a noble, why arm yourself with an axe when you can carry a high quality longsword, which is quicker? The answer would be to bash plate in, however, halfswording and maces are more effective (historically) against plate armours than axes.
Within the freeman/peasant classes, axes were unpopular to arm your soldiers with as they require a LOT more skill to use than say a mace. Imagine trying to always make the blade edge of the axe land rather than any area of a mace.

Personally, I'm happy with axes. They have a high cut, bonus vs shields, GREAT for small spaces. And for me, they fit historically too. I take axes when I'm low level/low on money but still want to dish out damage.

[zagibu]

Some things you got wrong there. There is not less metal in an axe than there is in a sword. Axes are cheaper, yes, but it's because they are much easier to make, not because of metal costs (well, that, too, axe metal doesn't have to be the best steel you can get). Also, axes don't cut deeper than swords. This generalization is wrong. An axe is basically a sharp wedge, so it's good for splitting semi-hard materials like wood. However, the wedge form also means it's decelerated faster in soft materials. The real reason you don't chop wood with a sword though is because of tip energy. An axe concentrates the mass in the tip of the weapon (hence unbalanced), which, given it is accelerated to similar speeds as a sword, yields much higher kinetic energy. So yes, it is potentially more damaging than a sword slash. Which is already somewhat represented in the mod.

Which means you are basically right, axes work better against armor than swords, but they don't penetrate it, either. What they do is break bones under the armor, IF you can get a straight hit (which is hard to do on curved plate).

[Commodore_Axephante]

Just like to say, that in medieval Europe, the axe became nearly extinct as a weapon. Swords were the choice of the noble and knight class. Then obviously the "professional armies" that became more frequent used swords, maces and the such.

Based off that, the reason why axes are "inferior" to the other weapon classes is because they weren't continued through medieval technology. What I mean by this is that the nobles continued having stronger and harder steel for their blades, maces became smaller while staying the same weight, which made them a more attractive weapon. The point is, axes fell out of use BECAUSE they filled such a niche cap.

Think as a noble, why arm yourself with an axe when you can carry a high quality longsword, which is quicker? The answer would be to bash plate in, however, halfswording and maces are more effective (historically) against plate armours than axes.
Within the freeman/peasant classes, axes were unpopular to arm your soldiers with as they require a LOT more skill to use than say a mace. Imagine trying to always make the blade edge of the axe land rather than any area of a mace.

Personally, I'm happy with axes. They have a high cut, bonus vs shields, GREAT for small spaces. And for me, they fit historically too. I take axes when I'm low level/low on money but still want to dish out damage.

Long story short - you're right - axes were not as effective against plate and thus fell out of use once heavy armors were the norm. However, that's why in the OP I was suggesting ways to make axes more effective against medium/light armors. Maces and stabbing weapons (known to Warband as Blunt and Pierce) are better for breaking armor. None of what I suggested would change that.

[Commodore_Axephante]

(sorry to double post)

(...) Which means you are basically right, axes work better against armor than swords, but they don't penetrate it, either. What they do is break bones under the armor, IF you can get a straight hit (which is hard to do on curved plate).

Then make it a hybrid cut/blunt instead of cut/pierce 

[Spa_geh_tea]

I miss my 1h battle axe of 76length and 37 cut.....someone please trade me for my 38cut cleaver.

Suriously 1h axes are amazing for close quarters. I pick them everytime unless fighting plate loomers. 2h axes are few between because swords are just as effective. Make 2h swords do less damage and I bet you 2h axes will become sexier.