Remove thrust stun for poles.

[Paul]

So Poles were nerfed to hell and you want to nerf them more? Or nerf the stab on 2Hs?

I don't get it.

And polearms aren't just Cav and Pikes, its also hoplites who need Polestun to remain effective.

Panos means the attacker stun that disallows the attacker to block or attack again for some time after one of their stabs got blocked. On the other hand defender stun would happen when someone tries to block a strong (held) attack with a much lighter weapon, preventing to attack right after the block.

You mean polestagger that has been removed on WSE2 servers for some time now. Polestagger is a Native mechanic that gives a successful attack with a non-knockdown flagged polearm the chance(50%) to stagger an opponent. That means he will then execute a longer "has been hit" animation, which usually allows a follow up attack to be landed without chance to block for the victim.

I tried to establish the terms stun and stagger for those two different mechanics but no...

[Nazurdin]

Lol, imagine Knitler and other lawlpikewhores without thrust stun.

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[_GTX_]

Lol, imagine Knitler and other lawlpikewhores without thrust stun.

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Yeah.... the hre 2-directional polearms is alrdy doing great in siege. And they rely 100% on the stab.

[cmp]

Edit for GTX : yes they do but polearm stun lasts longer,I tested it a while ago..

I am not so sure, it seemed like it was the same. Idk... maybe its because i get it more frequently with 2h.

Funnily enough, you're both incorrect. 2h stun on a parried stab is 0.05s longer.

[Teeth]

I know exactly when to expect it when doing 2h stabs though, it pretty much only happens when you do a late dragging hit. Which are pretty useless, so getting stunned is rare, besides you need a very fast weapon to actually hit the average greatsworder after stun.. With my longspear I am not sure when I am able get stun, probably anytime cause most of my hits require dragging to actually hit anyway.

Anyway, I think it is a pretty gay mechanic, as I have no clue how to avoid it with my longspear so it feels like another random factor to combat to me, which should be minimized in my opinion. Also, two directional polearms are still gimped as fuck.

[no_rules_just_play]

Yeah.... the hre 2-directional polearms is alrdy doing great in siege. And they rely 100% on the stab.

HEY! i use overheads very often and knitler even more!

[_GTX_]

Funnily enough, you're both incorrect. 2h stun on a parried stab is 0.05s longer.

I am not so sure, it seemed like it was the same. Idk... maybe its because i get it more frequently with 2h.

I said the same, i am so sry i could not see the 0.05s. That is ofc a huge difference, which is long from the nearly the same. That also makes this thread kinda stupid, since 2h actually has it worse than polearms.

Edit for no rules: Comeon man, u know thats a lie!. Its like 10% of ur hits!.

[Kafein]

The turn rate nerf did not nerf 2D polearms for everybody. With the new hit detection you can do things that weren't possible before, as in stabbing people at facehug range with very long weapons without wiggling. So I wouldn't say it's a polearm nerf or a 2h nerf. If anything it's a 1h nerf, because 1h lack the damage to do these early connecting stabs and really need to turn around in order to hit anything because of how close to their opponents one handers need to fight. Overheads also suffer from this problem.

[Leshma]

Thrust stun is my death sentence, literally.

[Leshma]

I said the same, i am so sry i could not see the 0.05s. That is ofc a huge difference, which is long from the nearly the same. That also makes this thread kinda stupid, since 2h actually has it worse than polearms.

It's not, Teeth explained why. I too have no idea when it's going to happen with polearms and I'm actually scared to use thrust attack because of it. If someone like Teeth who is very versed with 2D polearms have no idea when thrust stun is going to occur, I doubt there's many players who do know.

As a 2H it's pretty easy to avoid thrust stun.

[Yachdiel]

polestun: if someone gets stabbed by a polearm, he gets stunned

thrust stun: if someone stabs (espescially polearms) and gets blocked, the weapon bounces back and isnt able to block/attack for a brief amount of time. this isnt removed yet.

My apologies, I understand now. And I also agree it should be removed.

[Teeth]

The turn rate nerf did not nerf 2D polearms for everybody. With the new hit detection you can do things that weren't possible before, as in stabbing people at facehug range with very long weapons without wiggling.

It was not like the wiggling was much of a hassle, actually it was part of the feint I did. Left wiggle, stab, got a lot of people to release their downblock. Below 200 range 2D polearms used to have a pretty big bag of tricks, great speed and amazing damage, weapons that were good even in duels. The wiggling required to do a stab with them was minimal and you still need to do some wiggling to hit at actual face hug ranges.

In a duel they got so much worse, while only being mediocre at being support weapons compared to a longspear that I see not much use in using them. Longspear hasn't been nerfed at all by the turnrate, still the best support weapon and still usable in a duel. If I may remind you of Chase with an the awlpike or even me or Warlord with the ashwood pike. Knitlery does a commendable job with the awlpike now, but they are not even close to the strength they used to have pre turn rate nerf.

In my opinion we should wait with suggesting any polearm changes for the change to the turn rate nerf they plan to do when they break compatibility with the blabla, whatever that means exactly. Here is hoping that will be the 6th, I think it will.

[Pentecost]

Is it possible to reduce the magnitude of the thrust stun for certain weapons only? I think that a rework of the mechanic that affects all polearms could lead to some unintended balance issues, as polearms are all over the place in terms of efficacy at the moment.

Four-directional polearms like the Long Bardiche, Poleaxe, and Glaive are already on an even footing with the best 2h weapons out there. Making their thrust better would likely lead to problems. 

Pikes and Long Spears are the best support weapons in the game and are invaluable in winning the main infantry push during a round. Again, making their thrust better would likely lead to problems.

Two-directional polearms though? I would support a reduction in the magnitude of their thrust stun because, as other people have pointed out, they have very little going for them at the moment. They're difficult to use at a decent level after the turn speed change unless you've dedicated a considerable portion of your cRPG career to two-directional polearms alone, as opposed to the single generation you need to get used to a greatsword if you already know how to melee. They're expensive--everything from the Ranseur on up costs more to use than a Longsword, Heavy Bastard sword, Morningstar, or Barmace. Their thrusts are not appreciably better than those of other polearms when it comes to actual battlefield dynamics--the Poleaxe is better for 1v1 because it has a thrust that is shorter but just as strong and backed up by very good swings to boot, and the length of the Pike and Long Spear makes them better for fighting in groups. The only area in which they have an edge over other polearms is in being able to actually kill horses after you rear them, but the thing is that not even all of them can rear (lol Partisan).

That's why I think that reducing the magnitude of the thrust stun for specifically the Ranseur, Swiss Halberd, Spetum, Awlpike, Corseque, Long Awlpike, Partisan, and English Bill should be considered if the game engine would allow it. It would help to make the aforementioned weapons a better midpoint between the 1v1 power of the four-directionals and the absolute support offered by the pike/long spear, would not require changes to their stats, and would neither completely change how they play nor leave them as the bag of mediocrity they are now.

[Knitler]

Ah you mean that thing when you hit wrong you take 2~3 animations more to retake your weapon than a block?

Its not when the guy just blocked, its when you hit the wall, or a shield on far or low distance, sometimes its really awkward when you have to fight agianst 2 ppl, you make a thrust on that shielder, get that "stun" and the other guy could easily hit you within 5seconds.

Would be realistic when hitting the wall or stone, but not on shields or just far away from them.

Theyre also called softspots, didnt noticed it in the low distance, but just in high, the "blocker" can easily walk forward and slash you. (notice that the guy dont even have to block)

HEY! i use overheads very often and knitler even more!

No... not really.

[Dionysus]

Considering it exists for two-handed weapons as well, I don't think it should be removed. I understand that someone with only a one- or two-directional polearm is at a major disadvantage when fighting alone, but in another context, removing the thrust stun would allow players to constantly strike in group fights.